IF YOU ARE SURE YOU “GET” THE GOSPEL, YOU PROBABLY DON’T
THE GOSPEL IS NOT THE ABC’S OF CHRISTIANITY
IT’S THE A TO Z OF CHRISTIANITY
IT’S THE HEART OF CHRISTIANITY
IT’S NOT JUST THE WAY TO GET IN
BUT THE WAY TO DAILY LIVE IN VICTORY
ANGELS PEER INTO IT, LONGING TO UNDERSTAND IT
IF YOU THINK YOU UNDERSTAND IT, YOU PROBABLY DON’T
IF YOU REALIZE IT’S DEEPER THAN YOU IMAGINED
YOU ARE STARTING TO SEE
IT’S A NARROW PATH, JESUS SAID
The path from Dee's cabin to her sister's cabin
STAYING ON THE PATH IS LIKE WALKING A FENCE
HOW EASY IT IS TO FALL OFF TO EITHER SIDE
PHOTOGRAPH BY BILL HATCHER
TERTULLION SAID
“THE GOSPEL IS CRUCIFIED BETWEEN TWO THIEVES:
ANTINOMINISM (AGAINST THE LAW) AND LEGALISM”
BOTH OF THESE ERRORS
THESE WAYS TO FALL OFF
ARE SELF-SALVATION STRATEGIES
Last Sunday night I went with my sister to a “hymn sing” at her little Zion Methodist church. It was well attended, robust and wonderful singing of the great hymns for ninety minutes. My heart was moved. My sister touched my hand when we sang Be Still My Soul, knowing how that ministered to me after Steve’s death. And then, when we sang It Is Well With My Soul, she had tears again, remembering Steve’s funeral. I keep praying the gospel will be formed in her heart. She hears and sees everything through a filter she has been taught. She thinks the crucifixion and resurrection are metaphors. That the atoning blood is a primitive concept. That the church is a place for fellowship and to do good and to enjoy the beauty of the metaphors.
I love my sister. I have honestly felt all my life that she is made of better material than me. She is warm, gifted, giving, and lovely. This is not about my being better than she is — it is about wanting her to see how each of us is in desperate need of the atoning work of Christ. I need it. She needs it. Every person needs it.
I know there are wonderful Methodist churches that have not rejected their heritage. But many have. At this church, though their heritage was still visible — a cross at the front (with faded letters beneath: in the cross of Christ I glory), though there were hymnals and Bibles in the rack, though we were actually singing the hymns — I also know that all of these are now interpreted through a filter. Everything is a metaphor. The leadership of that church and many of its members do not believe in the literal resurrection of Christ or in the blood atonement — even though they were singing about it. The song-leader, a gifted man, assured people not to worry about theology. Last year he said, “These hymns are just part of our heritage, we don’t have to believe the words.” He became very uncomfortable when a visitor wanted to share a story about a hymn and what it meant to him. I also knew that my sister and her husband were uncomfortable when a visitor requested and we sang “There is a Fountain Filled with Blood.” The gospel, the heart of Christianity, is rejected.
How does the gospel break through? What causes us to realize we cannot save ourselves? How are the lies all around us overcome?
I know it can only come by the Spirit of God. The wind blows where it will. But I also know we are told to be prepared to give an answer for the hope that is in us — and we must do it wisely.
It seems to be much harder today. Keller quotes Martin Lloyd-Jones: “The demon is in so deep.” We’ll listen this week to the first half of a free teaching session from Keller on why the demon is in so deep, and next week, take careful notes on how to share the gospel wisely in times like these.
I also know that the Gospel is not just the way into Christianity, but it is the way to live every day. I can’t believe I missed that for so long, but I did. But now I am changing. I know I am still only glimpsing how it works in my life, but I see it better now than when I thought I saw it clearly! I understand better how it is the way to live, each day. I am understanding why Luther said, “All of life is repentance.”
I must never minimize my sin. My idols have been mushrooming these last weeks as I have run to them instead of God to deal with my anxieties about the video edit — allowing my anxieties to multiply, hanging up on my son’s fiance, standing in front of the pantry mindlessly munching tostida chips from the bag like a woman without a Savior… all of these are quite ineffective self-salvation strategies. And these”infractions” are not small — each is so bad that Christ had to pay with His own blood.
We’re going to finish Jonah in three, at most four weeks, continuing to use Jonah to peer into the gospel. This week we’ll get help from our own dear Anne. We have more than one Anne participating on the blog (such as my niece, Anne Meredith) but this Anne has been with this blog for years, and so we know her simply as Anne. (Anne with an e, which is appropriate for her for those of you who are familiar with Anne of Green Gables.) I’ve cherished her contemplative spirit. She’s a compassionate nurse, a woman who sees what we often miss in art or in poetry, and is such a gift to us on this blog.
(Please pray for me Sunday morning as I speak at a large conference at Wheaton College on Idol Lies. Quickening, please!)
Sunday/Monday: Icebreakers
1. What stood out to you from the above and why?
2. How would you describe, with illustrations from your own life, ways to fall off the narrow road of the gospel?
Tuesday/Wednesday: Anne’s Story and Bible Study
Anne uses the story of the prodigal sons, and the beloved Rembrandt print, to help us peer into the gospel.
For many of you this is review, but you may still have to look back at the passages of Luke 15 and Jonah to answer these questions.
1. Falling off the fence on the rebel side:
A. How did the younger son in the story of the prodigal sons “fall off the fence” on the rebel side?
B. How did Jonah, in chapter 1, “fall off the fence” on the rebel side?
C. What do you know about the Ninevites (before their repentance) that shows they had fallen off the fence on the rebel side?
2. Falling off the fence on the religious side:
A. How did the older son in the story of the prodigal sons “fall off the fence” on the religious side?
B. How did Jonah (after he had preached the gospel and the Ninevites had repented) fall off the fence on the religious side? (If you don’t get this, don’t worry –we’ll come back to it in a future week)
Anne’s Story
For all of my Christian life I have been either religious or irreligious. I started out religious but soon became discouraged and gave up because I realized that I could not be good enough. The worst 10 years of my life followed this decision and those were the irreligious years followed by more religious years. I was able to convince myself that I was pretty good if I didn’t look too closely but I never grew and I was not joyful. I was working hard but not experiencing the grace that is the key to becoming like Christ. The problem was that I was trying to save myself.
As I began to work with Dee here on the blog to gain freedom from idolatry, the Lord spoke to me about covering. He asked me to stop trying to cover myself before Him. I did not understand at the time but now I think I may. Idols covered me, keeping me from seeing my desperate need of grace. Turning from them was very much like surgery without anesthesia as Keller said, but very soon the Lord came near with His presence and gift of grace and oh how precious it has been to me.
Henri Nouwen made this point to me in his book about Rembrandt’s painting of the Return of the Prodigal. I may not remember it quite right but I think he said that we all struggle with being like the prodigal and like the legalistic older brother but that our destination, in Christ, is to be like the Father. Understanding just how desperately wicked I am and how costly the gift of grace that I have been given changes me. I lose fear because I trust He who has lavished so great a gift on me. I don’t tend to judge others because I know how great a sinner I am. Bigotry falls away too because I know I am loved therefore I don’t have to put others beneath to build up myself. This is the organic change that will make us like Christ. As I found out the hard way, I can’t do this myself, because salvation is of the LORD.
3. Comment on Anne’s testimony:
Anne asks:
4. I what ways do you think your life would your life be easier or more difficult if you left the religious or irreligious life right now? Please explain your answer.
Thursday/Friday First Half of Keller Message
This is a long message, and it is teaching instead of a sermon — so I’m going to have you listen to 44 minutes this week, and then the final packed 30 minutes next week. You will listen to his first three points:
- Gospel Theologizing
- Gospel Realizing
- Gospel Urbanizing
Link: Click Here
5. What notes do you have?
Saturday
6. What’s your take-a-way and why?
1. What stood out to you from the above and why?
First off I love how Dee wrote about her sister and her sister’s background. Dee is such a gifted writer I really understand where her sister is coming from now and I do love the picture of the path to her cabin.
Also, in regard to missing how the Gospel works into every day-I can so relate for I missed it too! And there are days, like Dee’s that my idols mushroom and I go to those familiar places for comfort from anxiety. I HATE it when I do that because as Dee said, it isn’t small-Jesus paid for it with His blood.
I also can’t wait to hear how God will speak to us through Anne! God has worked through her as encouragement to my soul so many times here on the blog-with reassurance in parenting, and her deep insight into scripture and into art. I have also learned a lot from her as a mother of boys. Her boys are older than mine and I am sure when my oldest one gets his drivers license I will be emailing her! :)
Dee—praying for you this morning. Anne—thank you for your contribution to this week—it looks amazing. Diane—I will really miss you, but am praying for your time—to be safe and fun!
1. What stood out to you from the above and why?
I love this “I am understanding why Luther said, “All of life is repentance.” I have been thinking of that often the last several weeks—that it all really boils down to repentance and faith. And this phrase got me “like a woman without a Savior”. My version has involved fear and anxiety this week, and frustration. I had a very bad set back of pain last night. It was very discouraging and I am struggling to press on today as I want to hide in bed but there is not relief there either. Thankful for this study pulling me back to truth.
Elizabeth, I am praying for you that the pain will leave…I’m so sorry, dear sister.
Me too Elizabeth, praying for Gods power to heal you, or if that is not His plan, to sustain you in this trial.
Elizabeth, I didn’t see this post yesterday but oh Elizabeth-so sorry this is continuing! Praying..
I too am praying for the pain to ease. Sorry for this.
Eliazabeth, I’m sorry to hear the pain is still with yo.mi will continue to pray that God reaches down and touches you with His warm and healing touch.
Elizabeth, if you are able let us know how you are doing so we can pray! Love you!
1. What stood out to you from the above and why?
What you said about your sister’s church resonated with me. That is so danergous to lead people into thinking the gospel and the sacrifices of Jesus are all metaphors on how to live!
I had come close to this doctrine. It was almost caused me to miss out! I tried to find a way to keep both my gay lifestyle and church, I started reading a book by a known gay Pastor. The book was called, “Stealing Jesus”, and it was all about how legalism has ruined what he thinks is the true gospel. Which is based on metaphors.
When I came to the chapter on the Resurrection, and the writer illustrated that was all metophical examples of sacrifice.
I knew this was dangerous thinking! The Resurrection is the reason why we live!
The known atheist, Christopher Hitchens one time said, “if you don’t believe Jesus died on the cross and resurrected, then you are by no real meaning a Christian.”
Dee, I believe your sister will see this , because you are being the example of Christ, just by letting that leading of the Spirit in you.Your sisters has a heart that is soft. The kind of heart that God can talk to and work on! Just keep being that wonderful example as you are for us
You are at Wheaton College this morning? I wish I knew I would have come over! I live in Villa Park only 15 mins away. I love Wheaton and had wanted to attend that college when I was younger.
Where is Wheaton? What state?
Illinois, Joyce. :)
Laura Marie — the Lord has His hand on you — to help you see that you were being told a lie…
That would have been so fun to have you come over to Wheaton!
Laura-Marie, When I first read this the other day I thought-wow, how she presses on! You love God so that you are willing to take up your cross and follow Him. Your struggle with your past lifestyle has been a huge struggle I am sure! I so admire your faith. My closest friend had that same struggle all her life and she can relate. I saw her go through it, and saw God’s power in her life. It is difficult, yet so beautiful the fruit that comes out of it and I see that in you.
I wondered when you said Wheaton college if you meant Illinois. Not to far from me either in IN. Would have been fun.
I just had to peek at the blog before taking off and check so that I get the followup comments via email. Love to all.
Hi, Diane :) Enjoy your week. I may be gone when you get back. Praying you will be refreshed and safe.
Enjoy your vacation, Diane!
Enjoy your vacation Diane! Hope you can get on after this week. We will miss you!
We will miss you Diane, may God use time away to restore your soul!
Diane have a great time and enjoy your vacation.
1. What stood out to you from the above and why?
Something that is affirming
“I also know that the Gospel is not just the way into Christianity, but it is the way to live every day … I am understanding why Luther said, ‘All of life is repentance.’” This is affirming because it’s what I grew up hearing, learning. Even as a 13 or 14 yo, I questioned people who seemed to promote one side of the path or the other. God, through His grace, granted me the opportunity to (felt like “forced to” at the time) memorize a lot Scripture and some of Luther’s writings. Many questions I have (or develop) today stem from wondering if different “camps” of contemporary evangelicalism are as much related to culture as to Scripture.
Something that is sorta scary — or at least leads me to self-examination:
I don’t “like” the idea of walking on a fence. My balance isn’t that great!! Sometimes antinomianism and legalism are very, very obvious. But sometimes they are very subtle — the subtle stuff (especially legalism) is a bigger trap for me. The good news is that I’m not “just” walking on a tightrope; nor is it enough that I have a harness. I have Someone walking with me who desires to keep me on the rope.
” I have Someone walking with me who desires to keep me on the rope.”
This made me smile
Amen!
Yes! He is the greatest teacher and I have found I can rely on Him to show me legalism as it comes even subtly.
1. What stood out to you from the above and why?
Keller quotes Martin Lloyd-Jones: “The demon is in so deep.” We’ll listen this week to the first half of a free teaching session from Keller on why the demon is in so deep, and next week, take careful notes on how to share the gospel wisely in times like these. ////This struck me. So applicable in the Bible belt where everyone thinks they are saved. Cannot wait to listen.
2. How would you describe, with illustrations from your own life, ways to fall off the narrow road of the gospel?
trying to earn my way by doing this or that instead of resting in the gospel…or running to food, tv, etc. I always pray God reminds me to run from these things when I do them.
1. Something else I’ve been thinking about much of the afternoon: How it is “harder” to share the Gospel today than some time ago. First, I’m very interested in what Keller has to say.
As I was thinking about the past decades and how evangelism has changed, I started to think that some of the changes are “okay.” During my high school and college era (the first time in college!), we learned how to share the Gospel by presenting it in a step by step method. The spirit of that evangelism was tied with “modernism,” related to rationalism and the authority of the scientific method. Sharing the Gospel was easier because it seemed more black and white. More people had heard some of the terminology of Christianity (at least where I lived); so sharing the Gospel involved telling them how they had to change their mind about how the basics “worked”.
We used modernist approaches, but I’m not overly convinced that there was much room for the power of the Holy Spirit. By understanding apologetics, we learned to argue that we were right. “Right” was enough to change some lives, but it seemed that the biggest impact of that approach was over by the time I was in college (although the methods lingered).
In 1990, I was back to school and studying post-modernism. Today, I see some segments of Christians looking back on modernism as if modernism were the same as “Christian.” But when I understood post-modernism better, some parts of the Bible came alive to me. It was more natural to share the Gospel when I wasn’t bound by a step by step method. Instead, I learned to listen, had friends who weren’t believers, and shared who I was — a follower of Jesus Christ. I was well aware that I wasn’t good enough and my strength only came from Him, so I couldn’t view people from a “one up” perspective.
I didn’t realize what a bad reputation Christians in graduate school had until a friend (not a believer) was telling me about graduate students planning a party. He told me that when someone said they didn’t want to invite Christians, he defended me and said, “Renee’s not like the rest; she doesn’t hate people.” That stuck with me, partly because I was shocked, but also because sharing the Gospel had become so much easier when I “busted out” of church culture evangelism. That experience reinforced the importance of respecting and caring about people in order to a credible witness to the Gospel. The step-by-step methods helped me with being very clear about, understanding and remembering the Gospel — a huge benefit (i.e., good way to learn something is to teach it). But it seems that today’s culture requires outreach that is more similar to the styles of Jesus and the early church.
2. How would you describe, with illustrations from your own life, ways to fall off the narrow road of the gospel?
My legalism habits are well entrenched. When I focus on other people’s expectations rather than God’s grace, I can easily end up in a “not good enough” rut. Still worse, I might devalue someone else when I have met expectations and they haven’t (e.g., “I’m better because I haven’t done that bad thing … or I have done that good thing.” or “If they would just try harder, they could have done it, too.”). Although it is true that I might not be “good enough” because I didn’t work hard enough at work, the same can’t be said for following Christ. It’s His goodness that makes me “good enough” in His eyes.
One specific area in which I feel vulnerable to legalism is when I am identifying or categorizing idols. Now, I automatically see my idols some of the time, but when I go beyond the automatic and start to analyze, I do slide into the “not good enough” effects of legalism. I missed quite a bit of the Stonecutter study, so it might be that I’m not doing it right??? But I also suspect that I am so prone to legalism, that it is best for me to seek His grace as soon as I am aware of sin, without looking too deep to pinpoint a specific idol. Or it could be because I’ve been other-analyzed and self-analyzed “to death” (it usually was beneficial, but I get weary thinking about it). My sin stares me in the face (with or without named idols), and it seems that if I do anything other than look right into the face of Jesus, I end up in a legalistic rut. I can go back and analyze when I’m secure in His forgiveness, but I don’t know how to identify idols in a way that consistently points me to Him. Ideas?
Renee — I know we will do Idol Lies sometime in the next year after the book is released. Midday Connection wants to do it and I may do it with them.
It might be helpful to listen to the clips by David Powlison on idolatry on you-tube. They are just three minutes long.
Thanks! I remember listening to the ones on another site. Will check out the YouTube ones.
So glad to hear about Midday!
Will they do an online discussion, something like they did for A Woman of Moderation?
Dee, thank you. Your words about me are so kind and thoughtful. I have to be honest with you, I did not really like my testimony very much for it was not new or deep or exciting, but when I thought to change it the Lord prevented me. You have done a wonderful job with it and I believe there are those out there who will benefit from it. With my question I was looking beyond this group for I know that we have each lived it. We know that on the path there is LIFE! I would so love for others to see this.
1. It stood out to me that this battle is never over this side of heaven. As you shared your struggles during this stressful time, I thought about how the enemy digs in when we are stressed. But Jesus won, on the cross and Satan is a defeated foe. As long as we see we can fight. It bothers me about churches like this Methodist church because they blind people with lies. They see through a veil and do not fight because they do not see the enemy. If we could pray down this one tactic, how we would hinder him.
Anne, our parents would drop us off at the Methodist church to go to sunday school when we were kids and then pick us up. For many years we done this, without our parents ever going to church there. I never learnt what it was to be “saved” or to “give your heart to the Lord”, untill I was 21 and learnt about salvation from a friend. I had that filter on all those years, thinking I was doing good and would go to heaven. The friend finally helped me understand it was because of Jesus dying for me and that he rose again, that I am blessed with his grace and am saved. The night I gave my heart to Jesus, the friend said all the angels in heaven were rejoicing for me!!
Yes, let us pray down this tactic, Anne.Joyce — so glad the Lord wouldn’t let you go.
Anne I can relate to not liking your testimony, I felt unhappy with mine as well. I can also relate to hoping that it will help someone else, in spite of me!
Love this;
“But Jesus won, on the cross and Satan is a defeated foe”
Praise God, we can pin all our hopes on this truth!
Yes, praise God!
Chris, I appreciated your testimony very much. I am glad you went ahead with it because it showed us how to respond to suffering. I loved what you said about God being so much bigger to you now and how you trust Him so much more.
I loved what I read and can so relate to eating tostito chips in front of the pantry…especially since before sitting down to read this, i just ate two pieces of buttered toast standing in my kitchen while I made eggs for my sons who are constantly hungry… bread is my comfort food, and i was already out of WW points for the day. We do act like women without a Savior. I want to be faster in my reaction and awareness of the things I do that sabotage my dying to him daily.
Looking forward to digesting Anne’s testimony and the sermon this week. Love to all!
Hello to all…. Just finished reading last week’s comments. I loved the sermon and really liked Diane’s thoughts about doubting her doubts, and acting on the truth as in doing the next thing God would want her to do. That reminded me of days listening to Elisabeth Eliot and she would always say, “Just do the next thing”.
My family and I are in North Carolina vacationing at the beach. We drove here Friday. The enemy and my own flesh have been having quite a field day with me! I felt so encouraged spiritually last Tuesday evening after going for prayer at my friend’s church.
Then, Thursday night my eldest son and I had a disagreement, mainly b/c I got my feelings hurt. Old feelings of resentment and jealousy surfaced. Friday the boys and my husband were teasing my daughter and during the 11 hour drive, her brothers’ teasing and my husband’s impatience caused several tearful episodes on her part. By the time we reached our condo Friday night, I had had enough, and said something pretty bad to my husband. He looked at me and said, “You are not a Christian”.
Not the best start to a family vacation. I apologized to my one son who heard my remark and to my husband. Things are better. Looking forward to this week. I was sorry to read about Chris’ son Josh and his marriage dissolving. And about Sarah comingH home covered with bruises. Life is certainly hard.
I am reading a book this week by Chris Fabry called Almost Heaven. The first few chapters are tragic and it’s made me cry to read them. A character in the book, an angel named Malachi, is having a problem with doubt. It made me think of Keller’s sermon last week what he said about doubt.
Praying for you on your vacation, Susan.
Father, I lift up Susan and her daughter and ask that You would strengthen them when they are being belittled. Show them how to speak the truth in love and not fear. Oh Lord, may Susan’s husbands and sons see You in her.
In Jesus Name
Amen to Dees prayer, may the bonds that Satan has in Susan’s family be broken by Your mighty power, show yourself strong in this family Lord, may we all see the change and know it was a work of Yours that we may give You the glory. Sustain Susan, keep her from discouragement and focoused on the cross.
Amen to these prayers for Susan and her family.
Susan, you have grown so much. You have a beautiful heart and you live in a very hard place. Please don’t beat yourself up. I would have been protective also if my child were being belittled. I really like Dee’s prayer about speaking the truth in love, not fear. Also about the men seeing the Lord in you no matter how they try to paint it or how they taunt you. How we lift you up to the Lord! Vacations can be so very hard in this kind of situation. I pray that you and your daughter will find refuge in the Lord.
Will be praying Susan for Gods peace to overflow on your family.
1. What stood out to you from the above and why? That even though you, Dee, are being mightily used by God and are a woman that other women respect and look up to, you sometimes blow it and not only that, but you confess it rather than trying to make yourself look like you’re above all of that and are too spiritually mature to need tostida chips to comfort you. Thanks for that!!
2. How would you describe, with illustrations from your own life, ways to fall off the narrow road of the gospel? When it comes to dealing with the unsaved I have compassion, I realize that they are blinded and do not know the truth that there is a Savior and they need him. When it comes to other Christians, I am much harsher in judging them and wondering if they even think about what they are supposed to do as Christians. I know who is the hypocrite, who isn’t giving enough time or money, who is selfish, who really doesn’t care about the lost, who is gossipy, etc. And every time I throw out a label I am just showing who I really am. Just as bad and worse!
Thanks, Dawn.
Good second paragraph.
Anne,
Some of the things I appreciate about your testimony are the description of religious and irreligious. That sounds like a good description of the two “ditches” along the narrow path. I can relate to “I was working hard but not experiencing the grace that is the key to becoming like Christ.”
Also thinking about something else: how you described covering. I’d post more about what I’m thinking but want to process more first. Good to see the Rembrandt picture again :)
Sorry I’m ahead. Will be gone later this week & would like to finish much of this before I leave.
2. How would you describe, with illustrations from your own life, ways to fall off the narrow road of the gospel?
So I wrote a short essay again and had to edit a lot out. ;-) My approval idol mushroomed yesterday when we went to visit a church we used to go to. It is very close to where we live. My husband misses the teaching there and wanted to visit. I missed the teaching and the people and couldn’t wait to see them again, but after we decided to go fear and anxiety welled up in me like a balloon! Some false rumors spread as to why we left-but we made sure some in leadership knew it was because we weren’t unified in God’s calling to that church. Anyway, I feared, ‘will leadership welcome us or be cold?’ Will our old friends be warm or judgmental? There might have been a few people hesitant to reach out to us but most were warm. There was even one who asked if I would be interested in joining their band as they are re-grouping now. :)
There were several times I almost turned around and went back to the car, but started speaking truth to my soul during the singing worship time.
I really did fall off the narrow road most of the morning battling anxiety.
Thanks for sharing this, Rebecca.
Thank You all for your prayers for my speaking at Gems yesterday. Rebecca had prepared for the conference details well, and I truly did sense His presence with me.
I’m very thankful to you for your prayers.
Dee, I heard you were Amazing! :-)
1. What stood out to you from the above and why?
I’m a little frustrated after reading the introduction because I don’t understand thd point you are trying to make about the gospel, Dee. I’m not very good with metaphors and “reading between the lines.” The gospel is the story of Jesus, right? It is the story of the birth of the church. It is the story of the apostles who spread the word of God to their own detriment. It is the story of the end of times. I also don’t see the connection we are making with Jonah. I wasn’t able to buy the sermon last week but I read elizabeth’s notes several times.
2. How would you describe, with illustrations from your own life, ways to fall off the narrow road of the gospel?
I’m not sure I get this either. How is it a narrow road? I’m sorry to be stupid here. I’m just not following. If the gospel is just law or no law (in other words, no heart), then I dont get it. Anyone can follow rules, but how do you know Jesus? How do you know His heart? (“Golde do you love me?”)
Okay, how do I fall off the path? I guess you mean when I don’t follow the “rules?” I think I have said this here before, but here goes…..everyday. In everything I do. As I write this I am filled with anxiety that I am not going to finish the paper I am writing as my final requirement for my masters. It is long. It is hard. I feel like I am birthing another baby. I am staying up way too late because my family is distracting me during the day, and I must get through certain things each day. I am drinking wine because I am depressed about it taking so much time when I know there are other issues that need my attention at home. Just yesterday my septic clogged, a car starter died, and my basement floor is ruined due to the flooding. We don’t have money to fix everything. Sarah invited a friend over and caused a huge uproar in my house on Saturday night. I yelled at my kids, my very depressed husband (who just got back from a trip to visit his mother who may be dying), and was mean to my dog. I was an hour late for church yesterday! Really? What’s up with that? Because I couldn’t find the right thing to wear? How self centered is THAT? ridiculous. I did get there in time to hear that a member is having her leg amputated tomorrow because they can’t get rid of the infection in her knee replacement from a year ago. I cried. Everything I do is off the narrow path these days. Yikes. I have a lot to learn.
Hey Laura,
I think it just means that the Gospel isn’t just “pray the prayer” and get in (to heaven/Christianity), but instead the Gospel is growing in Him and strength for daily living …. or something like that
I haven’t thought about how this is related to Jonah :)
I like your questions about “falling off the path.” I’m struggling with them, too. If I can fall off the path so easily, I feel like “staying on the path” becomes one more self-salvation strategy.
Hi Renee! Did you see my comment to yours about the quote from Alcorn? (on last weeks ‘blog) Thanks for setting me straight; very helpful (the explanation). I get it now!
Yup, saw it :) Thanks for your encouragement!
Laura, my heart goes out to you dear sister, you have a lot to contend with.
Looking into the gospel everyday as I understand it right now is to see the terrific price Christ paid to redeem you and me, sin is real, it is horrible, it is costly, seeing that without the cross there would be no hope for us to stand before a Holy God, that my sin is so much worse that I imagine, looking at this empties me of pride, I deserve hell, but have been an unworthy recipient of grace, what relief, I can rest in Christ’s perfection, I have no righteousness of my own.
That Christ, gave everything in obedience to the Father out of love to purchase you & me for Himself, He paid with His blood, His tears, His flesh, it gives us significance, a purpose and a hope. He really loves you & me! If we are His and He went to the cross for you & me, then you I & are heirs, we are going to feast with Him in Heaven someday! May His goodness bind our hearts to Him more & more. May we understand the gospel more and more and allow it to transform us as we gaze upon it!
And no septic problems, right?! God is so good :)
P.S. The septic is cleaned and the car was towed. I have worked hard today on the paper and am making progress… The old joke comes to mind about eating an elephant! Sarah is still home seemingly with a better attitude, company is gone, and hubby seems better today. All is well when we keep our eyes on the prize. Thanks be to God for loving a worm like me!
That is wonderful Laura! How faithful He is! There with us through it all.
Laura our basement has been badly flooded twice, once just after we had finished two bedrooms down there. I know how awful the clean up and the discouragement can be.
I am glad that today doesn’t seem so dark for you! How can we pray for your mother-in-law?
My sweet mother-in-law had a heart attack last April. Triple bypass no problem. Contracted c-diff in the hospital and spent about 5 months trying to get well. She had her intestine cut short and had a bag inserted while it healed. She went in for surgery to have the bag removed last week and is having high blood pressure and is retaining fluids. She was a vibrant woman up until last spring. It is sad. Thanks for any prayers for Irene. She took care of her husband up until a year and a half ago when he passed. I just would like for her to enjoy a little bit of time with her kids and grandkids where she doesnt have responsibilities; just fun.
Will be praying Laura-Dancer. Please keep us posted.
Laura does Irene know Christ?
Well, she was raised catholic and was very faithful. When her husband began to deteriorate about 10 – 15 years ago she stopped attending church because it was a struggle. I believe she knows Christ.
I will pray for Irene.
Praying Laura
Hi Laura,
I’ll make an attempt here to answer your questions. The gospel, means “good news”. The bad news is that there is none righteous, not one. We cannot save ourselves. We are born wtih the stain of sin and the penalty for sin is death. That’s the bad news.
But the good news is that Jesus came and lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place on the Cross. When we place our faith in Him, accepting His sacrifice for us and putting all of our trust in His finished work on the Cross, we are forgiven, cleansed, and made a member of God’s family, one of His children.
Dee has taught us that the gospel, the good news, is not only just for the beginning of our relationship with God, at the moment of salvation, but it is also the power we need to live in victory over sin every day. Jesus died not only to get us to heaven, but to sanctify us and help us live lives of purpose and to do the works God has planned for us to do.
I think the metaphor of the narrow road is that we keep walking in the center, relying on Jesus alone, while to the left and to the right, if we slip off the path, is the trap of either trying to earn our way by our works/following the law (legalism) or by taking advantage of the grace we’ve been given by saying it doesn’t matter what we do, we’ve been forgiven.
I’m sure sorry for all the troubles and trials coming your way right now. I will pray for you to finish your paper.
Anne, I think that your explanation of the metaphor of the fence is what I got out of it, too.
Sorry, I meant Susan.
Very clear, Susan. Thank you!
Thank you susan, i needed a refresher!
Laura, these are great questions! I think what we mean when we talk about ‘the gospel’ as if it is an entity, is the death burial and resurrection of Jesus. This fact plus nothing has paid for our sins and given us eternal life. There is nothing we can do to save ourselves. Good works (or following the rules) do not save us but are a response to what Jesus has done for us. When we walk the path we live in that fact. We can stray to one side or the other and that is what antinominism is on one side and legalism is on the other. I used the words irreligion and religion because those are the words Keller used in his sermon. The prodigal was irreligious and his brother religious. One is moving away from God and the other is trusting in our own righteousness. I hope this helps and I think that as we move through the week it will become clearer.
1. What stood out to you from the above and why?
I was glad to see this concept of the gospel being crucified between two thieves as a point of discussion this week. I have given that idea a lot of thought since I heard it in one of our sermons, I remember Keller saying to whatever degree we err on one side or the other, the gospel is emptied of its power in our lives. I sometimes can see how I err in both directions. Given Jesus’ reaction to the Pharisees, legalism seems the greater of the two evils don’t you think?
My heart is touched by your concern for your sister, and her empathy for you. I prayed that God would send His Spirit like a flood, that she will have the scales fall from her eyes and that she will truly repent. I prayed for you Dee that you will be the love of Christ to her.
I thought about the irony of this church that does not believe the truth in the hymns having a hymn sing when so many evangelical churches don’t sing them anymore. I thought about the service being well attended, and that the truth in the hymns, the Word of God that the lyrics are based on, is living and active, and that the gospel is preached by those hymns, no matter the intention of the music director.
My heart leapt a bit when I read the part about the gospel being the way to live life every day. I mentioned before that just after our pastor came onboard about 4 years ago our entire congregation was encouraged to read The Cross Centered Life by C. J. Mahaney. Preaching the gospel to ourselves on a daily basis was emphasized. I see that through suffering and the reinforcement of the teaching here I am closer to “getting” this, to looking to the cross when I am scared, feeling inadequate, disillusioned with life, even fat! Jesus loves me, He has paid for ALL my shortcomings, He has made me a joint heir with a hope and a future. I fasten all my hopes and purpose on Him and I will not be disappointed.
I suppose it isn’t too surprising that your idols were working over time, Satan must be pulling out all his tricks to thwart the power of the message you are bringing to the Body, thankfully greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world, may Idol Lies go out with power against the enemy!
2. How would you describe, with illustrations from your own life, ways to fall off the narrow road of the gospel?
I begin to stray from the path and walk in darkness when I listen to my heart telling me what I need from life, from the world, to feel like I am okay, that people like me, that I am secure.
I have followed that voice to different degrees at different times of my life. The most egregious would I suppose be when I was a teenager. I ran as far as I could from my faith. I started my period when I was nine, I have read that early menstruation is the biggest risk factor for girls, because they receive sexual attention at too early an age to be equipped to deal with it. I was doing drugs, drinking and being promiscuous, looking for affirmation and love through sex. I remember discussing this period of my life with a counselor years afterward, I said how stupid I felt that it took me three years to figure out that no one was going to love me because I slept with them. She laughed and soothed me saying that there are women in their sixties she counsel’s who still had not figured that out.
Becoming pregnant with Josh at 16 put an end to that foolishness, I wanted my child to know God in a more profound way than I had, so I went back to church, pregnant. My poor parents! I didn’t think too much about their shame back then. Most people were welcoming to me, but not everyone. Josh and I were both baptized at that church in the same service when he was about 8 or 9 years old.
Chris, I can relate so much to what you share here, rebellious yet looking for love and carelessly hurting the ones who really loved me. It seems to me that even in that state we were closer to God than the legalists. We knew we were wrong and eventually understood how we needed God. I do think legalism is worse because it involves pride. The irreligious came to Jesus in droves while the religious were repelled like opposite ends of a magnet.
How wonderful that you and Josh were baptized together. I’m sure he will never forget that!
I agree Anne, Keller says in the true older brother sermon, that the younger brother knows he is a sinner because he has all the signs; squandered the money on women and booze, and comes home with a sexually transmitted disease!! Too funny! I love Kellers sermons. I really wish I could hear him speak in person.
Thanks Chris, for continually giving me hope for Sarah.
Such a vivid and honest illustration, Chris. You had to grow up fast!
Chris, thanks for sharing…we all have things we are not proud of.
I needed so much this quiet morning to focus on God, on this study. This was a hard weekend. I made it to church Sunday, but just barely. I was so exhausted, physically & mentally. The sermon was on John 20 1-10, the empty tomb! I had listened to this from Redeemer last week on the same text.
http://sermons2.redeemer.com/sermons/doubt-what-should-i-do-my-doubts
I love it when God does that, so clearly working things together in a way that cannot be missed or mistaken.
We were encouraged to fellowship after church in a purposeful way. Pastor Mark asked us to think of what in our lives we had kind of given up praying about, share it with someone else and pray together.
I have been talking with Bill about our lack of solid friendships in our church, and yet when these opportunities to really share with others arise, my instinct is to get out of there as quickly as possible, some deep muddy heart issues going on there!
I declined a request from Bryar to spend the night last night, mostly because I needed to quiet my heart and soul before the Lord today I have a busy week ahead, this seemed my only shot at a quiet morning alone. I felt bad though not to keep her.
We found out yesterday that Bills cousin is getting divorced. We love him and his wife, she reached out to us bravely inviting us to spend Christmas day with them in the depth of our grief, and we went again this past year. I sobbed when I heard this. They are so dear to us we can hardly take this news in it is such a shock. He was raised Catholic, and is now agnostic, she is from Scotland, and I have sensed that she is seeking truth.
Thank you for your tenderheartedness toward me, Josh and Leigh. Things seem a little more hopeful today than they did Saturday. She is talking to him. I had a really tough day at work Saturday,after a very late night of work on Friday, I had two large parties going on, I felt sick, physically and emotionally, my helper was late, and I had a hurtful misunderstanding with a co-worker. I know that all of your prayers were used to sustain me. I don’t always write as much here as perhaps I should, but I have come to appreciate each of you so very much.
Chris, all of your comments encourage me. Great explanation of the gospel to Laura. Sorry for this new pain with the cousin. I love that I was part of sustaining you through my prayers. Love to you.
thank you Kim!
What stood out to me was the fact that even though I think I know the Bible, there is still so much to learn. God talks to us though the scripture, and I put so much other “idols” ahead of my Bible time. I plan on changing that!
I fall off the path everyday. My attention is directed in so many ways that I sometimes stumble off that path and wander though the forest of “my life” without hearing God’s whispers. I know that God has literally grabbed me by the scruff of the neck and hauled me back on His path. He is a great and mighty Father!
PS Thanks for being at our conference on Sunday!
Welcome, Joleen :)
Welcome Joleen!
Welcome to you Joleen.
Hi Joleen! Glad you are here :) I know what you mean about there bing so much to learn! I read and read and read and continue to gleen from the scripture; even scripture I have read before! I wonder if that is why the Bible continues to be the most sold book every year?
Yes, I agree– welcome welcome Joleen!
Nice to have you here, Joleen!
Jolene, welcome! So appreciate your honesty.
Dee, I think I’m in the process of “getting it” — i.e., about the idols. I listened to a few of Powlison’s segments, but what is helping me most is an article by him in the Journal of Biblical Counseling, “How Does Scripture Change You.” http://www.ccef.org/sites/default/files/journal-articles/scripture-change_0.pdf
The article is helping me see the lenses through which I was viewing idolatry and testimonies. Page 29 and the last page are helped me the most (maybe because those are the parts I read carefully :) ). Powlison quoted Luther as saying “This life, therefore, is not righteousness but growth in righteousness, not health but healing, not being but becoming, not rest but exercise. We are not yet what we shall be, but we are growing toward it. The process is not yet finished but it is going on. This is not the end but it is the road. All does not yet gleam in glory but all is being purified.”
Then he wrote,
“The Christian position sets boundary conditions and goals.The Christian process struggles forward amidst many variables and contingencies.
Third, the triangulation of change—the interplay between situation, personal struggle and living God—exposes the failures of typical pastoral counseling. Churchly advice often reduces the complex, unfolding dynamic of ethical transformation to a doctrinalistic, moralistic, or pietistic exhortation to“Just_____.”
Some examples he gave were:
Just repent, Just give your troubles to Jesus.-Just remember God’s sovereignty.
that’s where I got stuck. I was viewing identifying idols as a “just do this and I’ll be changed. But my experience has been that I’ve been changed MANY times, and so what? I still struggle. But when I look at it as a process rather than a “fix,” I have hope…
Wonderful ending to the article:
“‘God meets you where you are.’ That’s a truism. But when you stop and ponder how that happens and why it happens, it is nothing less than light breaking into darkness. A sin-sick, life-bruised soul revives and begins to live. The Christian life is organically alive. We turn, we trust, we obey, we grow—interacting with what’s happening around us, as the God of truth breaks in. He has gathered us to himself in a lifelong holy experiment in redemption.”
I needed to go beyond the truism and absorb the “organic” relationship, “the lifelong holy experiment in redemption.” That frees me from seeing testimonies as (what I’ve been exposed to for MANY years): “once I was so bad, and now I’m changed” — and then a year later, who would have guessed? The ongoing nature of the Christian life keeps us living the Gospel. Plus, it’s a more honest way for me to share Christ with others.
This is really good Renee — organic, growing — rather than a formula.
I want to thank you Elizabeth for recommending the book A Praying Life, I read the first five chapters just now through tears. It is just what I needed to read right now.
Sunday/Monday: Icebreakers
1. What stood out to you from the above and why? – I can definitely say that I DON’ T get the gospel all the time. I have questions all the time and try to find different versions to make a verse more clear to my simple mind. I loved the path picture, it reminds me a little of the scripture walk at Spring Hill in Michigan. I loved taking my time walking thru there, reading the scriptures and pondering the questions. I loved seeing all the nature and Gods beauty as it lay on the ground or stood tall into the sky or formed some “nature made” sculpture all done from God’s touch thru the years. The saying from Tertullion “THE GOSPEL IS CRUCIFIED BETWEEN TWO THIEVES” jumped out at me. I never thought of the gospel also being crucified along with Jesus. Could it have been that long ago when life started to fall apart. My goodness this just saddens me. I sensed the sadness while Dee and her sister were singing the hymns. Not only for the loss of Dee’s husband Steve and the memories that probably brought to the forefront but also for the film over her sisters eyes and the others in that congregation. To sing a song and not believe in the words, how can anyone do that. I don’t know how many times a song pulled me thru my trial or issues at that moment. How many times I cried while singing for words that may have showed me what I’ve done to Jesus or how He could help me if I would just believe. I could go on and on, but will stop as my response to this one question is very long and wordy, so sorry ladies.
Julie, I’ve went to Spring Hill for the last 4 Fall Women’s Retreat and one Spring Retreat. That’s where I heard Dee speak.
I was there too when Dee spoke. What a great time and place. Our church went this spring but I had to back out and go to Kansas to see my son get married, but I think our church will be going again I. The fall or at least fall of 2013. It would be neat to meat up if you go again.
I love it when women on this blog find ways to meet in person. I pray that will happen for you two dear ladies!
2. How would you describe, with illustrations from your own life, ways to fall off the narrow road of the gospel? – Oh my, where do I start. That is definitely so true. It is so easy to get off track, to lose your way and leave the path the Lord has set out for you. I think for me right now is letting all my life’s worries and troubles, my work duties, my wife and mother duties, my medical issue all pile up like dirty laundry. The pile gets so high I just don’t even want to start the “laundry”. I want to have a “pity” party and feel sorry for myself that I let the “laundry” get in the way of me growing in my relationship with the Lord. I put off what should be the most important part of my life right now, which is my relationship with the Lord, to just be lazy and do the fun stuff, stuff that doesn’t take much of a brain to do. Do I know it’s wrong, yes I do. Do I try and jump over the pile, no, not like I should. what I need to do is take a pic ax and chisel away at that pile a little at a time until it’s gone and manageable, but need to start with the Lord and ask Him to help me make my to do list.
Lord you know me, from the inside out. You know my personality, my abilities. Please help me Lord to do the important things first and to stay on the path you have set out for me. To stay steady on the fence so I don’t lose my balance and go back to the laundry pile and if there is time after I’ve walked your path to then chisel away at the “dirty laundry”. I just want to please you with what I do so Lord guide my path. In Jesus name I pray!
Just read this by Tim Keller, which helps me understand a little better: http://a-voice-crying-out.com/2012/04/10/thieves-of-the-gospel/
I appreciated the reminder that we heard in a sermon before :)
“I am more sinful and flawed than I ever dared believe” (vs. antinomianism)
“I am more accepted and loved than I ever dared hope” (vs. legalism)
Thank you for that reminder, Renee. I had forgotten it.
Renee — you ARE SO GOOD AT FINDING RESOURCES.
THIS IS PERFECT.
1. What stood out to you from the above and why?
This two phrases jumped off the screen:
“…like a woman without a Savior.
And these”infractions” are not small — each is so bad that Christ had to pay with His own blood.
Therefore we must take them seriously as He does. That is why we must remain mindful of Him especially when anxieties pressing in on us. It really comes down to warfare. I’ve been reminded of the battle raging for my soul lately. How well am I putting on the armor and fighting. This blog is a great help in the battle.
2. My answer to this question is in my testimony. I have been thinking about the path metaphor that Dee used and how we get off to one side or the other. Sin will certainly lead us away but I think this is a picture of something deeper. My reading this morning is in Romans where I found this jewel of truth. The context is about circumcision which the Jews seemed to equate with salvation, kind of a law/works salvation. They kept the law by being circumcised, therefore were saved. But I think God gave it more as a covenant, a promise of salvation for which they must wait. Their job was to keep themselves free of idols in the meantime, circumcision of the heart.
If Abraham was justified by works, he has something to brag about-but not before God. For what does the Scripture say?
Abraham believed God,
and it was credited to him for righteousness.
Now to the one who works, pay is not considered as a gift, but as something owed. But to the one who does not work, but believes on Him who declares the ungodly to be righteous, his faith is credited for righteousness. (Romans 4:2-5 HCSB)
I think what Paul is saying is that God has done the work, the gospel, and that our job is faith in His finished work. That is our righteousness. When we stray into self righteousness or antinominism we are off the path into unbelief.
For many of you this is review, but you may still have to look back at the passages of Luke 15 and Jonah to answer these questions.
1. Falling off the fence on the rebel side:
A. How did the younger son in the story of the prodigal sons “fall off the fence” on the rebel side?
He desired things and pleasure more than his father and so he went after them and used his father as a means to get what he wanted. He basically ran after his comfort idol. I think that is where it started.
B. How did Jonah, in chapter 1, “fall off the fence” on the rebel side?
Jonah knew God. He was a prophet but when God asked him to go to Ninevah,the place he hated, he ran. He didn’t want the Ninevites to experience God’s mercy and Grace, he wanted them to suffer. He fell off the fence when he ran to his idol instead of trusting God and repenting of his disdain for the people.
C. What do you know about the Ninevites (before their repentance) that shows they had fallen off the fence on the rebel side?
They were unbelievers-they worshiped many gods. They were indeed oppressive and evil, at least their military and rulers were. Not sure if that meant every person there was that way. I think they became so big and prosperous that they didn’t think they needed God. They worshiped gods, but I think they also became their own gods and tried to control people with fear and oppression.
God is our provider so we call on him to meet this need. If you do need more than freon then I pray He will supernaturally provide the money needed. This is an area I am working hard on – to trust and not get excited or worried when a boulder seems to be in my path. He is so good to teach me and how I pray I will remain teachable. Bless you, Rebecca.
Oops, this was meant for the air conditioner situation. :)
Kim, just saw this! Thanks so much!! I mean it..You all are so full of encouragement..of prayer, of wisdom!! Thanks for sharing that with me. I too tend to immediately fret like Dee once said, “A wild woman”..that was my initial flesh response due to our overall situation, but then a picture of a mountain over a hill came to mind and God reminded me that He is the mountain and this is a hill. :-) He calmed me and even strengthened me to be there to lift up my husband who was pretty weary when he got home from work..He was better this morning..I think God wanted me to encourage him.
I like that reminder about being a wild woman. It fits well with Dee’s comment, this lesson, acting like a woman without a savior. Wow, I need to step up and be the woman He’s called me to be: A woman with a savior to call to and not wild with fear. My savior is a mountain in comparison to my hill.
1. Falling off the fence on the rebel side:
A. How did the younger son in the story of the prodigal sons “fall off the fence” on the rebel side?
I really can’t believe this…..I tend to not look ahead at the weeks’ study. I have been re-listening to the prodigal son series from keller and just realize that’s part of this weeks study!
The younger son was a hellion. He took his fathers money and used it to party.
B. How did Jonah, in chapter 1, “fall off the fence” on the rebel side?
Jonah didn’t listen to God when He told him to go to Ninevah and tell the people there to repent. Jonah ran from God. He thought his feelings were more important than Gods request. He was way into himself instead into God.
C. What do you know about the Ninevites (before their repentance) that shows they had fallen off the fence on the rebel side?
They were into partying too. They enjoyed themselves through drink and debauchery.
You got it, Laura-dancer. So great to see how God is taking you by the hand and leading you.
I need prayer this morning and today if you all would! Our air conditioner went out last night. It was a hot, long night. :( The repair man is coming this morning. If it is a freon problem, we may need to purchase a new air conditioner. we are hoping it is a low cost fix, so pray. If it is a big issue then I may have to stay with my mom this week in Missouri until we figure out what we will do. It is going to get up into the 100′s all week this week and weekend and we can’t stay here. I won’t have my main computer either, so pray. Thanks!!
Oh Rebecca! Will pray right now
Oh LORD our Miracle Worker! Please undertake for this family right now. You know the need and we trust You for solution. Be with this repairman this morning. Keep him on schedule so that he arrives on time. Give him discernment as he looks and the ability to fix the system quickly,inexpensively and permanently this morning. We ask these things in Jesus’ name, Amen
Amen to Annes good prayer, bring glory to yourself here Father by providing for your servant Rebecca and her family, and THANK YOU in Jesus name!
Praying for an inexpensive repair.
Praying for you, Rebecca. There is a lady in my Sunday school class whose daughter had her tonsils out a couple of weeks ago. They live in a house with no air conditioning. Her daughter is six and has been ill for a long time due to those tonsils. During her recovery, she was not supposed to be overheated. We prayed for this situation in our class, and the maintenance men from the church went over and installed a portable air conditioning unit in the daughter’s room. The family could not have afforded to buy one. This was an answer to prayer big time, and so needed as the temps were in the upper 90′s.
I think it’s cool that God cares about things like this in our lives!
The air conditioner company we use is run by believers. They are very trust worthy. You might want to pray for all in this heat wave/drought-he said their business is picking up-he can’t keep up with it. He said capacitors are going out in air conditioners all over the place. (Our capacitor was out as well as the freon leak.)
I have been thinking about this drought-how it is effecting everyone-farmers, families, etc..Food prices are going to go up higher too. Not what we need as we are slimming down our budget-but I often think of how much we have. I also think as a nation how gracious and long suffering God has been to us-based on what I am learning and embracing about God’s character here on our study I don’t think God is making us suffer as a nation, I think it is the opposite. I think it is a severe mercy so that we might turn to him-but I am not Him, I don’t know for sure.. I have also been challenged a lot recently about ‘what if’ things were stripped away from us..’what if’..would God be my center, my hope-would I cling to Him or run to my idol? My answer is I don’t know..I do know I want to be ready..I want to run to Him..I don’t want my hope to be in this world.
Praying Rebecca
Oh Rebecca — let us know! We’re praying.
Thanks so much Dee for praying!! As you all were praying he was working on it! :)
This is awful…..I know the heat from living in Texas. You can’t live without an a/c! Praying for you. How far away is your mother?
1. Falling off the fence on the rebel side:
A. How did the younger son in the story of the prodigal sons “fall off the fence” on the rebel side?
He declared his independence, he insulted his Father took what he thought would bring happiness and left the presence of his Father
B. How did Jonah, in chapter 1, “fall off the fence” on the rebel side?
He fled from the presence of the Lord, he also declared independence.
C. What do you know about the Ninevites (before their repentance) that shows they had fallen off the fence on the rebel side?
In chapter 1 God said their evil had come up before Him.
Chapter 3 verse 8 says, “Let everyone turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his hands.”
Matthew Henrys commentary on verse 3;
[3.] They must to their fasting and praying add reformation and amendment of life: Let them turn every one from his evil way, the evil way he has chosen, the evil way he is addicted to, and walks in, the evil way of his heart, and the evil way of his conversation, and particularly from the violence that is in their hands; let them restore what they had unjustly taken, and make reparation for what wrong they have done, and let them not any more oppress those they have power over nor defraud those they having dealings with; let the men in authority, at the court-end of the town, turn from the violence that is in their hands, and not decree unrighteous decrees, nor give wrong judgment upon appeals made to them. Let the men of business, at the trading-end of the town, turn from the violence in their hands, and use no unjust weights or measures, nor impose upon the ignorance or necessity of those they trade with. Note, It is not enough to fast for sin, but we must fast from sin, and, in order to the success of our prayers, must no more regard iniquity in our hearts, Psa_66:18. This is the only fast that God has chosen and will accept, Isa_58:6; Zec_7:5, Zec_7:9. The work of a fast-day is not done with the day; no, then the hardest and most needful part of the work begins, which is to turn from sin, and to live a new life, and not return with the dog to his vomit.
Thanks so much Anne and Julie! He just arrived, and on time.
Looks like it is fixed. Thanks so much for praying! We have a leak with freon, but he put enough in there to last the rest of this summer. We will need to purchase a new air conditioner before next Summer. This fix was at a very reasonable cost! Thank you Lord! :)
So good to hear that Rebecca, now yoy have time hopefully to save up a little at a time.
Julie, oh yes. :-)
Praise God!
Chris, thanks so much for praying!
2. Falling off the fence on the religious side:
A. How did the older son in the story of the prodigal sons “fall off the fence” on the religious side?
By outward appearance he was in the Fathers presence, but he did not desire to be a part of what the Father was doing, he didn’t love the Father or share the His heart, he was using the Father to gain things for himself, he was outwardly obeying, but inside he was angry & resentful
B. How did Jonah (after he had preached the gospel and the Ninevites had repented) fall off the fence on the religious side? (If you don’t get this, don’t worry –we’ll come back to it in a future week)
Jonah didn’t understand God’s mercy toward the Ninevites, just as the older brother couldn’t believe his Father would throw a party for his younger brother, the sinner.
Jonah felt that the brutality and wickedness of the Ninevites should disqualify them from God’s mercy.
He felt justified in expecting God to incinerate them, he was trusting in his heritage as an Israelite & his identity as a prophet rather than realizing that he, just like the Ninevites, was dependent upon the mercy of God.
I have heard it said that most of us desire judgement for others & mercy for ourselves.
This all brought to mind for me this verse in James 2;
13For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
How true that we desire judgment for others so often, yet mercy for ourselves.
1. What stood out to you from the above and why?
That the gospel is the A to Z of Christianity. No, I don’t fully understand it. I don’t think an entire lifetime is enough time to understand it. But I am encouraged that the realization of this truth is the beginning of truly seeing.
I am saddened by the Methodist church and I can understand the heartbreak you feel, Dee, about your sister being misled. I wonder if they knew the rich history of those hymns, that they would wonder why men and women wrote those words if indeed, the truths in those hymns were only metaphors?
The phrase, “like a woman without a Savior” sticks with me. It helps me trace the thinking behind so many of my actions, like running to spend money, running to the computer, to sweets, or feeling unloved, lonely, rejected and depressed.
I agree with Dee’s words about Anne – she’s all that, and more!
2. How would you describe, with illustrations from your own life, ways to fall off the narrow road of the gospel?
I fall off the narrow road of the gospel when I am not rooted in the Vine. When I do not remain in Him and He in me. It’s a practice. It’s also daily washing in His word. When I slip to one side or the other, usually legalism, I know I need speak truth to my wavering, divided heart. I recently slipped when I wasn’t able to be in control of money spent – MY money! At first I began to panic then I remembered He works everything for my good and is bigger than money. What a revelation! I simply said to my heart, “Heart, listen here, if the money is spent God will provide. He alone is my provider and provision is not dependent on who is in charge!”. This was a breakthrough moment for me and brought forth a peaceful result.
A side note: I keep thinking how glad I am that these churches still sing the hymns for they are filled with the very words of God and can break through to the singer – the word will not return void, it will do as I have commanded it. Let us pray then, sisters, that God will breakthrough to these folks singing, like God broke through to me in that little Christian church and sent me running to the altar in repentance at the age of ten. I keep thinking if God can reach me there He can reach folks anywhere!
Kim, I agree about the hymns! Plus, when I have been in some “church-limited” areas and felt starved for good church input (pre-Internet), I was blessed and encouraged by hymns even though the Bible wasn’t read or preached.
Yes, the Word in song.
I HAVE THAT HOPE ABOUT THOSE HYMNS TOO.
Quick prayer request. I have been under a lot of stress at work. Still waiting to settle a grievance with my employer. Having too much anxiety. Now I have a stress related viral outbreak in 12 different places all over my body and even though I’m on medication, I had 2 new outbreaks this morning. I’m thinking of getting a piece of broken pottery and sit on a pile of ashes and scrape my sores :(
no fun… praying for your outbreak,stress at work and grievance with your employer. And as tempting as shards of pottery may be, uh… works well short term, but do whatever you can to avoid that!(easier said than done) I might try the ashes, though. Definitely praying.. 12 spots is crazy-making.
Oh Renee, so sorry to hear and will be praying. Try and hang in there and let the Lord embrace you.
Oops that msg should have been for you Dawn, sorry.
Dawn, this is terribly hard! I once broke out in hives after a particularly difficult board meeting. I soaked in oatmeal bath to calm the stress and then used Calamine lotion. We will pray for the Lord to come and give you His peace and ask for His healing touch upon you physically and emotionally. Lord Jesus please settle this situation between Dawn and her employer quickly with a good result and bring your healing to her. Thank you, Jesus!
FATHER, PLEASE LAY YOUR HEALING HAND ON DAWN’S ANXIOUS HEART AND BODY. MAY THE DISPUTE BE SETTLED SOON AND WITH GRACE.
Yes Jesus, I pray this for Dawn also.
Oh my, Dawn, praying for you. Amen to the prayers already prayed.
4. I what ways do you think your life would your life be easier or more difficult if you left the religious or irreligious life right now? Please explain your answer.
This isn’t exactly religious, but it’s the same spirit: I’m often too proud/embarrassed to ask for help. Life would be easier with help in some areas (physical labor, heavy stuff, house stuff). The “asking” part would be more difficult.
May not ask for help yet because my AC doesn’t work either :( Called to get it fixed a week ago. Then called again yesterday. They MAYBE can come in a week. Because I have to travel before and after that, I’m going to try to rearrange my schedule here and be gone for a week and a half — AC people can come in two weeks. It’s a little cooler today (90s instead of 100s). I’m reminding myself of summer jobs and/or travel in various parts of the country, living in rickety “tin cans,” upper floors with no AC.
I agree that there are huge needs in this heat… so many people with no AC — and no AC to fix. Idea: Not sure where to call, but I’m going to grab the phone book to see to call ??? to see if there are “hidden” older adults who might need people to check on them, fans, etc.
I’ve been wrestling with something since the beginning of the week. I couldn’t articulate it well then, and I’m not sure I can articulate it clearly or without offense now. After realizing that I was interpreting Powlison’s perspective on idols too simplistically, I’m seeing that I may not be “getting” this either, and I do want to “get it.”
I started the study with a picture in my head of the verses in Mt 7:13-14, and I reacted “in my gut” about falling off the path that “leads to life.” I’m not understanding Matthew 7:13-14 (narrow and broad gate, difficult path) used in the context of falling off the path. I probably didn’t spend enough time trying to better understand Tertullian’s quote.
Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”
I’m neither Calvinist nor Arminian; I (quickly) looked up the passage in online commentaries. The Calvinist perspective emphasized God’s keeping power. What might have been Arminian emphasized the difficulty of the path, mortification of the flesh.
I love this YouTube reading of Spurgeon on Mt 7:14, One Wrong Step and Down We Go http://youtu.be/zOztRKmeJgQ It provides clarity and comfort that God is able to keep me from falling. Spurgeon cited Jude 24 and said that “He is able to keep us from falling, so that with a deep sense of our utter weakness, we may cherish a firm belief in our perfect safety.”
I think I might have an easier time if I hadn’t been reading through the lens of Mt 7. I’m having a hard time with the visual of falling off the narrow path leading to eternal life because I do believe God can keep me from falling. One hymn that periodically comes into my mind, and I thought it was from God — I intended to put it on my wall, is “Come Thou Fount,” especially the the 3rd and 4th verses of the original version:
3. Jesus sought me when a stranger,
Wandering from the fold of God;
He, to rescue me from danger,
Interposed His precious blood;
How His kindness yet pursues me
Mortal tongue can never tell,
Clothed in flesh, till death shall loose me
I cannot proclaim it well.
4. O to grace how great a debtor
Daily I’m constrained to be!
Let Thy goodness, like a fetter,
Bind my wandering heart to Thee.
Prone to wander, Lord, I feel it,
Prone to leave the God I love;
Here’s my heart, O take and seal it,
Seal it for Thy courts above.
Here’s my challenge: I “get” (on some level) our tendencies to be like either the prodigal son or the older brother. I thought I somewhat understood the concepts of Matthew 7:13-14. But I am having difficulty integrating them. As a young Christian, I lived in terror that I’d commit a sin, be unaware or forget to confess it, then die, having fallen off the path (so this has become an emotional struggle, too)
I’m sorry this is so long; part of it — Come Thou Fount and Spurgeon — reflects what I’m using to talk to my own soul. And I don’t know what else to delete without being unclear or too blunt. So please help me integrate “falling off the path,” God’s power and desire to “keep me from falling,” and Jesus’ speaking of the broad and narrow gate. Sorry, I’m just not connecting the dots, and maybe, like with the idols, I was looking at the concepts too simplistically. Thank you.
Renee — good questions.
I believe the two paths are two different ways of rejecting God — though one of those (the older brother) doesn’t realize he has rejected God. He is like the Pharisee — religious and moral.
I don’t believe this is saying we can lose our salvation by becoming moralistic and trusting in ourselves, but rather this is to be a wake up call to those who think they are saved but are not.
Having said that, I still think there is a warning here for us, that overcoming sin needs to be approached through trust in the Savior, repentance toward the idol and faith toward the Savior, rather than trying really really hard in our own strength.
Thanks, Dee… this is a little clearer; stepping back from it for a day also helped. I was getting stuck on the “path” analogy. Legalism and antinomianism, as ways of rejecting God, are both part of the broad path/gate that Jesus talked about. But when we think about believers falling off the path into antinomianism or legalism, it seems that we are in a qualitatively different path metaphor?? i.e., if believers fall off the narrow path, we don’t necessarily fall off the narrow path leading to eternal life and into the broad path leading to destruction described in Mt 7? As Spurgeon affirmed, He is able to keep us from falling. I believe that “keep us from falling” includes overcoming sin, not “just” keeping us from eternal destruction.
Hard to clarify what I’m thinking. I often tell people I ‘lean toward’ reformed theology (and I think I still do), but may need to dig a little deeper into this path/falling off info. I might be completely middle of the road rather than ‘leaning.’
I “get” the risk of falling into sin, especially legalism, and that the only way to overcome sin (as well as to view others rightly) through Him, His grace. I’m still a little fuzzy on how to integrate this into one path “picture,” but likely I would be more clear if I move out of visual mode! Thanks again.
Woo hoo! I’m going to listen to the Keller sermon tonight :)
I do think you have it. And yes, the visual model, if causing confusion, needs to be abandoned.
Renee, you are growing spiritually and it shows. God is leading you into a deeper richer walk with Him and you are going. He takes us slowly and allows for our simplicity just as we do for a child. If he dumped it all on us at once we couldn’t handle it, that’s why we don’t hand over our car to a 4 year old. If you find yourself in a time of life where you aren’t learning, questioning, growing, then you’ve either strayed from the path or He wants you to sit with something that you didn’t get the first time and He knows that you are ready to handle this deeper knowledge. There is something new every day. It’s like listening to a symphony, or eating a new dish. At first you only hear or taste the most prominent thing. If you listen again or take another bite with the intent of discovering the subtleties, you’ll be surprised at what you find and appreciate it more.
Don’t forget the words to the 4th stanza “O to grace how great a debtor
Daily I’m constrained to be!” Daily!
NOTHING can snatch us from His hand, even our spiritual immaturity. He’s a good shepherd, if you stray He’ll find you and bring you back.
good comparison to symphony and new dish!
Thank you, Renee…so beautiful!
You have been on my mind today Elizabeth, missing you & hoping you are okay.
oh thank you. this is the first i’ve been here since Sunday. thank you for your sensitive Spirit and the prayers. My neuropathy took a really bad turn Sat. night–and for 3 nights straight I could not sleep–it is always worse at night, but has been just awful. I am going to an internist tommorrow, can’t get back in to the neurologist yet. Just pray for wisdom please.
I am sorry–I have been so discouraged. I know in my head, He is here, but the last few days I have felt His silence so strong and it feels terrible–I can’t say more, you understand. I was OK believing He is teaching me in this crazy pain–but maybe I always thought it was temporary. Now it’s been 6 months and when it had started to get better and then took this turn, I just can’t. Maybe I was not like Jonah at all, I was hanging my faith on His getting me out. I don’t know this person I am in this–I want my energy, my playfulness back. thank you all, so sorry to be this way–i don’t want attention to this–I trust those who see this will pray and I thank you
Elizabeth, my heart aches to know of your continuing painful trial.
Father we bring Elizabeth before you like the friends of the paralyzed man who was lowered through the roof. We are sure of your abundant love for Elizabeth, and we trust that this trial has been sifted through your hand with great care. Please Father if it be your will, give the doctors great wisdom, give Elizabeth enough strength and enough hope to draw closer and closer to you, please Lord, allow her to sense your presence.
Father let hope grow in her soul, give her something to laugh at even in her pain. May her family support her with great tenderness and understanding, may we her friends and sisters her be an encouragement to her.
Thank you Lord for intervening on behalf of Elizabeth, in Jesus precious name
Amen
Elizabeth I encourage you not to try to look too far down the path during this time of discouragement.
Please share with us, do not hesitate, how you are doing and what the doctor says, so that we know how to pray for you. Please please allow us to help you bear this burden you are facing. The enemy wants you isolated, listening to him Don’t listen to the voice that says you need to appear to be in control, or that no one cares, we do care, you are struggling and it is okay to struggle, let us know that we can pray. You are loved!
Okay?
oh dear chris–your words just touched my heart so deep-deep enough i believe it is what He wanted me to hear–I am hanging on to this-”I encourage you not to try to look too far down the path during this time of discouragement.”
thank you for caring for me, much love to you my friend
Dear Elizabeth, I am so very sorry. I am praying for you.
I am just reading all this more than a week later, elizabeth. So sorry you are having so much pain and for such a long time. I agree with Chris S. Please keep telling us about this so we can support you and pray for you.
Elizabeth, although you’re situation is different than mine, I see so much of myself in your response to it. I had this whole comforting hopeful reply for you and I realized that what I was about to say, I haven’t even accepted for myself.
Something that I read in Edward Welsh’s book on depression is that some people’s goal (maybe without even realizing it) is to end the suffering and if God just happens to be in it, all the better. They are submitting to God’s will, praising Him in their suffering in the hopes that the trial will end, not because they have accepted His will for their life.
It is so true with me right now because when I think that I may have depression for the rest of my life, I want my life to be over–now. That hopeless thinking is sin. I am not fully putting my trust in the knowledge that He has designed my life perfectly and EVERYTHING is for His glory and His alone.
I’m still working on this :)
Wrong use of *your, sorry!
Dawn, how have you been lately with your depression? I am also on a antidepressant and don’t think it’s helping much…need to call my Dr. again. My husband says he does not believe in depression. He thinks it’s all in your head, and I say, well it is!! I say if you broke you arm you would get it fixed, just like depression, you need to get it fixed too, only you can see it. He says, you wake up in the morning, like he did for 33 years and have to go to a job you don’t like…you can choose to be depressed about it or just look at yourself in the mirror and tell yourself to cheer up and be happy you have another day.
That isn’t really depression, when it’s over something you do or don’t do. I can’t explain it to him..he just doesn’t understand. But I’m happy for him, that he can choose to have a good day
My day is determined by how much time I spend with Jesus , reading, singing, praising him.
Joyce, It can take awhile for an anti-depressant to work (like a couple months) and to find out if it’s gonna work; if it doesn’t work at all, they could switch you to another one. It can take awhile to find right meds, right dosage, and right combination of meds … and right combination of treatments altogether. Plus, if exhaustion is a contributing factor, time and rest are important. Physical pain, etc., can contribute so pain control might be a factor. Sounds like a good idea to call your doctor. The term itself (depression) isn’t particularly helpful because it means so many different things and because some do have the opinion your husband has.
Our thinking can have a lot or a little to do with the depression. It’s so individual, which makes dealing with it even harder.
Thank you, Renee. I didn’t mean to sound like it was new for me, I’ve been on something for depression for years, but thank you! I did call the Doctor and she is increasing it alittle.
Oh Elizabeth — I hate hearing this. I’m so sorry.
Pain is exhausting, and I know when I’m tired, I’m also prone to despair.
Father,
I do lift up Elizabeth. I do ask for this burden to be lifted — if You choose not to, please strengthen her. But You tell us to ask, and I do — Oh Lord. I pray for Your wisdom for the internist tomorrow.
In Jesus name
Elizabeth,
Thanks so much for sharing this. Praying that you will know His love and experience His strength for the MOMENT. My heart goes out to you — sometimes “a day at a time” seems like way too much to bear.
1. Falling off the fence on the rebel side:
A. How did the younger son in the story of the prodigal sons “fall off the fence” on the rebel side? He just decided to go wild and live how he wanted insulting his father by asking for an early inheritance.
B. How did Jonah, in chapter 1, “fall off the fence” on the rebel side? He decided to do his own thing as well and run in the opposite direction from where God told him to go.
C. What do you know about the Ninevites (before their repentance) that shows they had fallen off the fence on the rebel side? It is really bad and unspeakable stuff they did to enemies. They were very cruel in their history.
2. Falling off the fence on the religious side:
A. How did the older son in the story of the prodigal sons “fall off the fence” on the religious side? He could not see his own sin, he was concerned about his brothers. He had log in the eye syndrome.
B. How did Jonah (after he had preached the gospel and the Ninevites had repented) fall off the fence on the religious side? (If you don’t get this, don’t worry –we’ll come back to it in a future week) He said it was the reason he did not want to go, he knew God was loving and kind and knew the FATHER would forgive or bring repentance and Jonah was not for that at all. He pouted.
2. Falling off the fence on the religious side:
A. How did the older son in the story of the prodigal sons “fall off the fence” on the religious side?
When he became angry that his father was celebrating his son’s return. He felt that he had followed the rules, did all the right things yet received nothing in return. It is clear he did these things for his father just to get something in return, not just because he loves him.
B. How did Jonah (after he had preached the gospel and the Ninevites had repented) fall off the fence on the religious side? (If you don’t get this, don’t worry –we’ll come back to it in a future week)
When the people in Ninevah repented and turned and God withheld his wrath, this made Jonah angry that they received God’s mercy yet didn’t deserve it. He forgot that he too received God’s mercy in the whale. His control idol made him forget he was needy of God’s mercy and Grace just like the Ninevites.
2. Falling off the fence on the religious side:
A. How did the older son in the story of the prodigal sons “fall off the fence” on the religious side?
The older son was too good. He was looking down on those who weren’t trying to be good like him. He just didn’t know he was sinning like the younger brother. He thought, “I’ve been so good, I’ve done everything you have asked, surely I am owed a good life.” he thought he only needed himself not God’s help to be saved.
B. How did Jonah (after he had preached the gospel and the Ninevites had repented) fall off the fence on the religious side? (If you don’t get this, don’t worry –we’ll come back to it in a future week)
Because he too was like the older brother. He did think the ninivites deserved to be saved after all they had done. He felt he deserved it more than they did. He thought he could save himself and didn’t need God to help him, but when he couldn’t manage to take care of himself he wished he was dead. God pointed out to him that he might need God’s help after all.
4. I what ways do you think your life would your life be easier or more difficult if you left the religious or irreligious life right now? Please explain your answer.
Well, if you give your troubles (religious or not) to God, then you don’t have to worry about them anymore.(easier) Jesus takes them on and bears the weight for you. I have tried to be faithful and know that God will help me through the pain of writing (I know it sounds crazy but think writers block those of you who write) somehow. That on July 29 at 11:59 I will have a finished product to send in that is acceptable. I’m not even worried about the grade. I just want it to be my own words (not plagiarized; not trying to do that but it sometimes happens without knowledge) and good enough to pass.
Another area I feel stress but have long ago given it God is financially. My husband is our accountant and I have full faith that we will survive somehow. Hubby is the one who needs to give it over to the Lord.
The hardest place to let go is with my children. I fall short here often. One moment I believe He is in charge and the next (when something bad happens) I let go and think I am in charge and am the only one who can solve the problem. HA! I usually make things worse
It is usually making things harder for me because I have to remind myself offer that He is in control, not me; I have to trust and obey that He will take on the burden an use it to help me..letting go makes it hard..
That’s “often” not “offer” :) too late to edit
“July 29 at 11:59″ Woo hoo! Excited with you and praying for you!
Doing well Renee! Have 3 of the 7 days complete and have somewhat of a rhythm going. I pray I will finish on time. It’s very hard to just do this without being extremely bored (even though I like the material). I have to take breaks, so I do. Thanks for thinking of me :)
3. Comment on Anne’s testimony:
I love Anne’s thoughtful comments here on the blog, you are a deep thinker Anne, I love that about you! I am glad to know a little more of your God story.
I like what Anne brought out about feeling “good enough” either I am not good enough so I flee, or I will try to be good enough and alternate between feeling self righteous or defeated.
That being real before God accepting His grace by faith and resting in Christ are the answer are clearly and concisely communicated in what Anne shared with us.
I so appreciate everyone’s prayers. I’m sorry I’ve not participated this week—I have missed the fellowship. This pain becoming so constant, and robbing my sleep, just sent me into despair. Too much time researching online, I confess, led me to prepare mentally for the worst. I haven’t even wanted to read things like Joni’s blog, because I don’t want to identify with a chronic condition. But Chris’ words this morning–to not look too far down the path in my discouragement—oh, I let that be from Him, I hung onto it all day. After I read it, I took the kids to meet a friend to play and it was so good to get out.
Last week I picked up the book of Augustine’s Confessions from the library. It’s huge and I didn’t find time to look at it much, so tonight, I thought I’d “flip through it” before returning it tomorrow. I honestly opened to this page—and someone had starred beside this “…in him who was dead and lived again, who had been lost and was found. The greater joy is everywhere preceded by the greater pain…Thou never departest from us, and yet only with difficulty do we return to thee.”
Renee said it well—sometimes “one day at a time” feels like too much—but He is here in the moment, and I hang on that. The last 2 nights I have had some sleep—I have sung hymns in my head—and it has been helpful.
I love this Anne- “I lose fear because I trust He who has lavished so great a gift on me.”
Elizabeth, I smiled at your “flipping through” Augustine’s confessions! Quotation is so good, so true: “The greater joy is everywhere preceded by the greater pain…Thou never departest from us, and yet only with difficulty do we return to thee.”
Praying for you, both for joy AND reprieve from pain.
dear Lord Jesus please heal Elizabeth, take away the pain, heal her neck, give her rest!!!! please wrap her up in your arms sweet Jesus…comfort her and do not let her go into despair put let her feel you right there with her!!!!!
http://youtu.be/XQan9L3yXjc
Cyndi, that is so pretty:)
I’m so sorry you have to deal with this pain, Elizabeth. I’m sure God has a plan, meanwhile we will keep praying for you.
thank you all again for all the continual prayers. Joyce, I pray for your pain too–I know you know have experienced so much worse, for so long. My big praise–I slept 7 hours straight, which probably hasn’t happened in 15 years. I woke up with pain, but it still felt amazing to have slept. I had an appt today and the Dr did a ton of labs–this time I pray it all comes back negative! I’d rather keep this “idiopathic neuropathy” than have it be caused by what all he was testing for! He also gave me neurontin–do you take that Joyce? I’m hesitant b/c I’m on a lot of prescriptions, but I’m a bear about my sleep.
No more talk on this-sorry, I hate taking space here for this, especially when I’ve been so non participatory this week. But I cannot tell you how much I appreciate the prayer–we know how powerful it is, I would just about pay someone to pray for me!
neurotin is perfect for the kind of nerve pain you having!!! should work better then any other normal pain med. because it is nerve pain that your having.
Elizabeth, Just since this last surgery, my Doctor did put me on Gabapentin 300MG, Generic for Neurontin (one to two every six hours if needed for leg pain). It’s for the Siatic pain going down my leg and also for the numbness from nerve damage and for the sharp shooting pain from nerve damage. (from the last 2 surgerys).
Actually it’s a siesure med. and Kendra use to be on it for that, but they have found out that it helps alot with nerve pain and anxiety, depression and insomnia. I have insomnia, so this works wonders for me. I wake up feeling refreshed in the mornings after using it(I only take one). But it does cause drowsiness, so I can only take it at night, unless I knew I was going to be home and not driving and could take a nap. I really like it and it’s not a narcodic that you can get hooked on,
Praying for you!
I have restless legs too..I forgot, and it helps with that too..plus my depression:(
I would just about pay someone to pray for me! Oh Elizabeth.
My sister Sally was telling me that Alpha paid some people to pray — but somehow, that seems like an oxymoron.
The Lord keeps bringing you to mind to pray
Teaching notes for intro and first 3 points (so timely, related to conversations I’ve been having lately)
Keller: The gospel in a post-modern world
In post-modern spirit, he interpreted the topic in the way he wanted to!: How do we do evangelism in a post-modern world? The post-modern world presents crisis in the way of evangelism.
Martin Lloyd Jones (“the doctor”): 1959 series of lectures on revival.
First lecture based on Mark 9
Disciples were trying to exorcise demon; they couldn’t. Jesus said “this kind only comes out with prayer.” i.e., Jesus was saying “The demon was in too deep for your ordinary way of doing things.” Business as usual doesn’t work.
Allegory: The disciples were like the church; boy is like contemporary world.
Great difference between today and 200/100 years ago; then, people didn’t deny Christian ideas; they were apathetic.
Lloyd Jones in London: Spirit is not the same. Dr’s evening sermons were in London, aimed at person who didn’t believe.
The problem is not apathy; notion of right and true is gone, notion of spiritual is gone (?)
Leslie Newbiggin: Western world is mission field; an ex-Christian mission field. Innoculated of western culture—average person in NYC: distorted memory of Christianity; Christianity = blacks on back of bus, men could beat up women
What won’t work is a campaign, program, gospel presentation.
(book: )Richard Fletcher, barbarization of Europe. Then, evangelism was LONG process.
Around 1500, things changed. All European cultures were based on Christianity. All evangelism was an additional program. People knew something about Christianity but it wasn’t personal. –told people that they needed to do what they knew.
No magic bullets anymore. Can’t just do presentation: “The demon is in too deep. “ Is Dr right?
Is he right? Evangelicalism has grown in America? Was he (dr) exaggerating? He was in London in 1959. Happened in cities, Europe, first. Coasts before Midwest, south.
Today in America, There are pockets of Christ-haunted people (flannery o’connor) – cultural memory is very long. Christ-haunted: Traditional in values, conservative people. Some places still could grow big church with old style evangelism….
Michael Wolf: Fundamental schism in American society: – quicker growing, ethnically diverse, economically vibrant vs white dominated with diminishing cultural and economic influence
Evangelism magic bullets have died on the vine (e.g., crusades, programs, going on beaches, evangelism explosion). Almost no fruit from that kind of program anymore
By 90s: magic bullet was seeker service, critics are right in pointing out that 20 somethings s are turning away from “traditional seeker service”, still assumes white-middle class bred bourgeois, Christ-haunted culture to function
Only magic bullet people looking to, Alpha program:, format is improvement, right for our time.
Needs to be complete transformation of personality, theology, community by gospel
Gospel has to recapture us, and we have to recapture the gospel or evangelism will not work anymore.
Dr was speaking of modern rather than post-modern society (wouldn’t say notion of spiritual gone anymore). Traditional evangelism is even less effective.
Post-modern world: truth problem—all truth claims are seen as exclusive; guilt problem- gospel presentations assume guilt; meaning problem – don’t believe texts/words can get meaning across (whose interpretation is right, meanings are unstable)
That was introduction! (20min)
6 points to an approach (can’t say program):
Jonah – best representation of trying to do evangelism in post modern world
1. Gospel theologizing
2. Realizing
3. Urbanizing
1. Gospel theologizing
Jonah 1:1 Jonah called to Go to Ninevah and preach
For long time, Keller understood gospel as being basic minimum, and theology was advanced stuff. Wrong
Post modern society: all theology must be exposition of gospel
Mark Thompson, book: A Clear and Present Word, about clarity in scripture in post modern situation; people aren’t going to listen to you say “the Bible says”
He bases a view of human language/theology of human language, gospel based: Gospel starts with God, triune god, eternally happy because they glorify each other.
Why does a God like this want to create a world? He already had adoration within himself. Had delight within himself. Not to get, but to spread the delight he had. Can’t spread yourself to someone else without language. Language is inherent in the idea of God giving himself. Word. When God speaks, it’s always basically gospel. Human language is our vehicle for salvation.
At one point, Mark Thompson says goal of God speaking ought never be separated from center of Christian theology, the salvation of sinners.
Language is imperfectly utilized gift from God, and the whole purpose of human language is gospel.
In post modern society, where everyone is against abstract
All theology has to be exposition of the gospel. Have to work on gospel presentations.
“I haven’t seen a short, comprehensive gospel presentation that address post modern people.”
Old ones were great on systematic theology; story arc wasn’t there. Didn’t have biblical theology. Narrative arc of creation, fall, redemption, restoration wasn’t there.
Older gospel presentations were very individualistic. Helped you get relationship with god, consumeristic, idea of kingdom of God wasn’t part of it.
Emerging church, liberal church, all emphasis is on kingdom – heal world of injustice; lose emphasis on grace v works, substitutionary atonement (sort of a liberal legalism)
Take best of theological thinking, develop user friendly gospel presentation. Merge systematic and biblical theology
Can’t be little programs.
2. Gospel realizing
End of Jonah 2, he prays repentance prayer. Salvation is of the Lord. Whole bible is summed up there (Edward somebody>) Didn’t Jonah already know salvation is of the Lord? He did and he didn’t. Lifelong process of more and more deeply realizing the wonder of the gospel. I am accepted therefore I obey.
Religion gives you control, that’s why it’s popular.
Movie : the Bible, George C Scott playing Abraham, about to sacrifice Isaac, Isaac looks up, “father: is there nothing he cannot ask of thee?” “Nothing.” If I’m saved by grace, there is nothing he cannot ask of me.
Time when money is in Coke machine but it isn’t producing Coke. Gospel is gone in but pennies haven’t dropped. Nothing like character change is coming out.
Revival: not programs, when corporately the pennies drop in whole church, whole culture, impacts — how do we account for this radiant change? When wonder of gospel is recaptured. Gospel realization. To see the law by Christ fulfilled and hear… John Newton (look this up)
3. Gospel Urbanization:
God saying come to city — how can you not love such a mass of lost people?
It’s strategic:
Paul went to cities.. by 300AD, 50% of urban pop were Christian, the rest were pagan.
As the cities go, so goes the culture. Evangelical churches are the least urban cultures there are. White evangelicals don’t like cities; don’t like being around people who don’t look just like us. City is strategic—where people come. If we don’t urbanize the gospel, we won’t reach the world for Christ. Bobo’s in paradise, david brooks, merger of moral relativism bohemiam with materialism of bourgeois, worst of both worlds, need the opposite.
In cities, need to bring together what is good about bohemian: creativity, love of social justice with moral seriousness of bourgeois; need urban communities that reflect these 3
Renee — these are wonderful notes. It refreshed me to read them because though I have listened many times — there is so much. Now, with your good mind, I’m eager to read your contemplations!
No time to post much now, but I LOVED what I’ve heard so far. There were one or two times when I raised my eyebrows (e.g., the first time he said that something about no spirituality), but then when he went back and clarified, I was impressed. I was wondering if he was going to describe the period of modernism as “better” than post-modernism in terms of evangelism — and very impressed that he didn’t :) Was glad that he indicated that “the demon was in too deep” in both those periods. This helps me see some apologetics emphases a few decades ago as fitting for modernism.
Ravi Zacharias is someone else who has his pulse on evangelism in current culture.
May be able to listen to the rest of the teaching on the road this afternoon! I was encouraged by Keller’s teaching — can see that God is in control and that He continues to lovingly call me according to His timetable. I’m enjoying this because it “fits” — speaking to me, where I live and work!
Just thinking that perhaps the “demon is in too deep” in any era or culture to use evangelism methods/programs etc. designed for an earlier era or a different culture — a lesson learned by some cross-cultural ministries.
Elizabeth, praying so for relief for you, dear sister!
1. Falling off the fence on the rebel side:
A. How did the younger son in the story of the prodigal sons “fall off the fence” on the rebel side? He didn’t appreciate what he had and wanted more, in fact he wanted it all, NOW. His heart loved things more than people, demanding his inheritance from his father, caring little for the affect on his family. He was unsatisfied with what he had and ungrateful. He wanted something for nothing.
B. How did Jonah, in chapter 1, “fall off the fence” on the rebel side? He also failed to appreciate what he had. He chose to go his own way and I think he decided he knew better than God in this case.
C. What do you know about the Ninevites (before their repentance) that shows they had fallen off the fence on the rebel side? They failed to see their need for God. Went their own way.
2. Falling off the fence on the religious side:
A. How did the older son in the story of the prodigal sons “fall off the fence” on the religious side? He tried to be good enough by piety to gain his fathers approval and when his father failed to throw him a party for his good deeds he became angry and demanding showing his divided heart.
B. How did Jonah (after he had preached the gospel and the Ninevites had repented) fall off the fence on the religious side? (If you don’t get this, don’t worry –we’ll come back to it in a future week)
Jonah repines at God’s mercy of Ninevah and overlooked the good of which he had been an instrument. By grieving that God had had mercy on them Jonah apparently still thought of himself as better -legalism, religiosity.
3. Anne’s testimony is beautiful. I love this: “Understanding just how desperately wicked I am and how costly the gift of grace that I have been given changes me”
The gospel has radically changed me too, Anne. Seeing my wickedness, albeit painful, has caused the root of legalism to be pulled out in me. I now see people who use to be beneath me as my peers, friends even. I am no longer better. Now this does not mean I have it down pat but it means when a judgmental thought comes I turn from it quickly. It sickens me for I remember His great grace towards me. This whole process of rooting out has made me more loving and useful to the kingdom.
Love this Kim: Seeing my wickedness, albeit painful, has caused the root of legalism to be pulled out in me.
That’s tremendous.
3. Comment on Anne’s testimony:
First of all, I just love Anne and have loved it when we have had our more contemplative discussions. I also admire her honesty with herself, and with God as He brings to the surface these things.
“Understanding just how desperately wicked I am and how costly the gift of grace that I have been given changes me.” -I SO LOVED THIS. The Gospel saves us from the penalty of sin but it also changes us daily.
And the Gospel has changed her this way:
“I don’t tend to judge others because I know how great a sinner I am. Bigotry falls away too because I know I am loved therefore I don’t have to put others beneath to build up myself.”
I loved all of what preceded these statements because falling off the fence on both sides caused her to struggle and He brought her here to open her eyes and she listened and He came to her.
I wonder if God hadn’t given her a desire for His presence-to pursue him if she would have even saw it in the first place or desired to even dive into our studies here. His power amazes me.
Anne asks:
4. I what ways do you think your life would your life be easier or more difficult if you left the religious or irreligious life right now? Please explain your answer.
Great question! I had to think because I didn’t think I struggled with the ‘religious’ side, but I have and I am sure I do!
I guess at the beginning of this year I struggled with the religious side as I was seeing idolatry in my life, and then seeing it in the church. I struggled because others were in a blind season like I was. Instead of internally showing grace I judged and became frustrated..oh my! For example, when I tried to explain to a sister at church how the Song of Solomon can be applied to marriage, but God opened up a whole new dimension to me when He helped me see how He wanted me to apply it to my relationship with Him-the response I received was-how can men relate to it then, and then she said it might assume that God has a tendency toward homosexuality..Oh my..I responded back with some passages in Hosea and I said, how can men relate to being ‘the bride of Christ’ then? The rest of the conversation went well-no hard feelings or anything, but when I left I was very judgmental toward her inside-How can she be so short sighted? She wanted to go to lunch with me but I didn’t want to go. Then my judgmental spirit spread toward others.. That is when God had to reign me in through Dee’s studies and He showed me this truth was becoming and idol-He died for that. Show others the love and grace He has overwhelmingly shown me all throughout my life-in blind seasons too! He just said, “Follow me”..”Don’t look at others-that is my business.” :-)
That’s good, Rebecca. I so identify and good to read this.
Take-away (early because I’m leaving town for over a week):
“Getting” the Gospel involves way more than a “PERSONAL relationship;” it involves much more than avoiding antinomianism or legalism. My motivation for staying on the “path” is knowing Him, who He is, His love for me — the cost He paid to free me.
In response, I follow… live out the Gospel. It’s so much more than what’s going on in my head — more than relationships with others in a church body. More than Him and me, more than Him, me, and my immediate circle. So much more than any program or simple answers on “how to do Christianity.”
The impacts of the Gospel are not only individual, but also corporate. The Gospel is evidenced when the body of Christ seeks to live out the kingdom of God on earth. That involves strategic and creative efforts to reach the world for Christ and is lived out both through right living and love of social justice. In light of Keller’s teaching, there would be 3 paths to avoid: antinomianism, legalism, and (something like) individualism/consumerism. When my focus is on avoiding the wrong path rather than on the Savior, I stumble. When He is my vision, the “right path” is right in front of me. What is challenging me now is “Where is my Ninevah?”
1-2 I was such a big brother/jonah under the tree for so many years….I thought i knew how everyone should live and judged those who where “to stupid” to learn from their mistakes. I was like this until i had teenagers…they called me on it every time i would say something unkind about someone because of their woundedness. When my very good friend left her amazing husband and 4 children that i loved in order to follow her homosexual life style. it made me so angry and my kids heard and saw it and called me on it. this was my “Ninevah”
now this is my favorite song…it speaks to this part of my heart and helps me to get back to thinking like Jesus, i listen to it every morning to remind me of how much HE loves me and everyone else….
http://youtu.be/66zqQBxhUDA
at times im afraid that grace will lead to “missbehavior” but the more I am extended grace the more I want to follow God…..the more grace i extend the more my children are willing to listen to Gods truth, the more judgemental and leagalistic i get the more tempeted they are to rebel…its so backwards to me:-) but it has been proven in my life and in my parenting over and over again…..God knows what he is talking about after all…..go figure;)
Thanks for sharing this Cyndi.. Great song, and I hadn’t paid much attention to it. I checked out some of the lyrics… powerful!
Nobody knows what we’re for only what we’re against when we
judge the wounded
What if we put down our signs crossed over the lines and love like
You did
Oh Jesus friend of sinners
Open our eyes to the world at the end of our pointing fingers
Let our hearts be led by mercy
Help us reach with open hearts and open doors
Oh Jesus friend of sinners break our hearts for what breaks yours
When you raise your children well they do tend to call you on things! :-) Love this Cyndi.
In case this is helpful to anyone else–sometimes it’s easier for me to read when I can than listen–here is an article of the sermon/talk. The first one is DA Carson at the same conference, but Keller’s “The Gospel and the Supremacy of Christ in a Postmodern World” starts in middle of page 14:
http://www.christianlibrary.org.au/cel/documents/being_missional_christians_keller_and_carson.pdf
Thank you!
Great, Elizabeth. Yes — thank you.
This may be the only question I get to this week, but I wanted to answer Anne’s:
4. I what ways do you think your life would your life be easier or more difficult if you left the religious or irreligious life right now? Please explain your answer.
Well this week, I’m leaving any “religious” rules that say I have to do all my Bible study and enjoying the grace that is freely given! ;)
I have mostly religious tendencies. I do know the freeing truth of the Gospel, but still there are times when I act as though I don’t “deserve” to be treated a certain way, or suffer a certain trial. I remember years ago I was driving and I let someone in front of me. When they didn’t wave thanks, to my self, I said “you could say thank you”. When I heard myself, I was appalled—He could say the same thing to me a million times over. My lack of thanks, or my complaining spirit—my re-telling what all I did to clean or whatever…all ways that suggest I still in some way think its about earning/deserving. Thank You Lord You will never give me what I truly deserve.
Elizabeth, I am so sorry about all that you are going through. I am praying for you. I was reading comments in my email where I saw that you had asked about neurontin. Now I can’t find the comment but I did want to tell you that I have been taking it for several years. I only take it at night because it causes drowsiness but then I only need it at night because I take it for restless legs. It’s funny how it happened because I didn’t know I had restless legs until I went to a neurologist about my memory. He tested that and thought it was fine. He thought lack of sleep was my problem. He said I had neuropathy in my legs. It does help me quite a lot but I take it early, more than an hour before bedtime. I do recommend it for neuropathy.
Anne–thank you! can’t do better than first hand experience from a trusted friend and nurse ;)
I answered above about it too, Elizabeth!!
4. I can’t believe I said that I did not have us in mind when I asked this question. As I tried to answer it I realized that my thinking was as one walking right down the middle of the path. WRONG! I think that at times I act just as Dee described, like a woman without a Savior. A prodigal, full of needs looking for gratification. My life is harder when I cut out these gratifying ways and an aching empty space is left (until the Lord comes into it). Would I willingly go back to any of those things? Absolutely not! But I often catch myself defaulting back to them. I have to watch and pray. Maybe it would be easier not to fight the battle but I would never be happy because idols do not satisfy.
I think the religious life is harder by far. I work so hard and get none of the joy. I always wonder if it is enough and know that it is not. I am driven to more yet afraid to look too closely at myself. It makes me a very unfun person. I am serious and judgmental of others. Somehow, I can’t enjoy people because I can’t see beyond their shortcomings.
Renee, you mentioned the covering. It is something to think about and I have been doing that since the Lord spoke to me about it. I do think that idolatry is covering somehow. It is our feeble attempt to look and feel ok when we are not. I think it is in Ezekiel that God describes Israel as an abandoned newborn lying in the blood of birth and wounded. I don’t remember it exactly but it is not a pretty picture and I think describes us without Him. We try to cover our festering wounds and filth with idols and in the process separate ourselves from the One who would wash us, bind our wounds and adorn us with beauty. The sad thing is that when He does that she grows into a woman of beauty and turns to harlotry. This is the very real battle we face until we see Him face to face and are made new by the finished work of Christ. Oh, how I love the gospel!
Anne, Your use of the word “covering” struck me because I tend to want to hide from some people. For someone who used to be outgoing, I’ve become content being a hermit quite often. If I’m avoiding people, something is between God and me, too. Hard to clearly describe, partly because I’m not that clear myself.
Anne, I love your entire post here. I can so identify with what you said about not being able to enjoy people b/c you can’t see past their shortcomings. Oh. That is me, too. I have trouble just letting people be who they are and loving them at that point, instead, I want them to be and to act like I want them to, according to my thinking of what is the ideal.
Anne and Renee, I liked both your comments and can identfly with both of you.
Anne I loved what God spoke to you about stop trying to cover yourself…That has really stood out to me. From the fall that started and really in our sin nature we do this in many creative ways don’t we? What a provoking thought!
4. I what ways do you think your life would your life be easier or more difficult if you left the religious or irreligious life right now? Please explain your answer. Living confidently in the middle, as IN Christ would leave us with much peace. Realizing to the core that we are utterly sinful yet loved more so and forgiven, redeemed, etc. Living in that place at all times would make life so much easier. That is why preaching the gospel to yourself daily or even moment by moment is so important.
Sweet little man always crys, I am good, I am good when he does something bad or is striving to behave. When he is disciplined, etc. Oh how this is ingrained in us from early on! I pray for his heart as well and he sees his deep need for a Savior.
Here is a link to the gospel coalition women’s conference. http://thegospelcoalition.org/conferences/2012-womens/
All the talks and break out sessions. Good stuff!
Thank you so much, Angela. If you have recommendations on what you liked the best– please tell us!
Oh they all are so good! I really liked Jenny Salt though never heard of her before. I was told too that the session by nancie guthrie Word based ministry to women was great. Have not listened yet but will. I did hear her talk on there at the bottom grieving a loss and it was really good I cried. I grieve often when a new “issue” is revealed to me about my daughter and disability. My friend asked her if they had any material on this sort of thing and she said they did not. :( However all the principles applied it is like grieving a death of a dream or hope I guess. Healing. Of course Keller and Piper were so very good and it was fun to hear Kathy Keller speak as well. So much depth. I liked Nancy Leigh Demoss too.
Thanks Angela. Jenny Salt was at the conference last year and I heard her. I do like Nancy Guthrie and Kathy Keller is so interesting!
5. What notes do you have?
This was wonderful and convicting. I do agree with Keller in regard to todays world-how the demon is in deep and the older ways we would present the Gospel are not working as well now.
This brought to memory of how God brought me to Him. If I hadn’t seen the love and beauty of Christ in my brother-if he had just given me the four spiritual laws, or just shared the Gospel with me I don’t think I would have believed God was real. It was through my brother’s transformed life-his changed actions of love and sacrifice of his pride toward me that got my attention. Then when I saw him reading his bible my first thought was-okay so this is what is changing Him-there is a God and he is powerful and real.
I remember answering a question about, ‘do you believe in heaven?’ when i was in a class in small community college. I raised my hand and said, “how do you know for sure? Until I see it, why should I just believe it is real?” Then a girl who was a Christian raised her hand and said she believes because the Bible says it is real, or something like that. I wondered why she didn’t talk to us outside of class but now I know why. I think she was uncomfortable around us, scared perhaps. I don’t know for sure, but perhaps it is because of her default mode as Keller points out in this sermon, and God is in the process of pounding the Gospel in as the penny hasn’t dropped yet. I have that natural default mode too so I understand now why she avoided me.
Dying to ourself is the sacrifice God is talking about. I like what Keller said here: “The Gospel goes in but the pennies haven’t dropped. Nothing like real character change is coming out. The world sees that you are scared, that you are justified by what people think of you, approval, success, money you are making, how well your children are turning out, or by your ministry. But what God has to do is pound and pound (the wonder of the Gospel)into you until the pennies start dropping.”
Listening to Keller can often be like drinking from a refreshing spring. The things that bother me about myself and about the church, he articulates so well-I couldn’t begin to even figure out what was bothering me I just knew something wasn’t right. Then he puts it all together for me.
Like when he said this: “Revivals are not programs. A revival, when corporately the pennies drop, in a church, country or culture of Christians-the wonder of the gospel, the implications of the Gospel they understand it etc.. everyone looks around and says how do we account for the incredible holiness, love, radiant character, servant hearts. The answer is the Gospel. Yes I know about the gospel but now we get it. Salvation is of the Lord.
A revival is when the wonder of the Gospel is recaptured. Instead of going through the motions, have my quiet time, go to church, evangelize..even though I hate my neighbors I have to evangelize them.” “Gospel realization from a John Newton Hymn: To see the law by Christ fulfilled and hear his pardoning voice transforms a slave into a child and duty to a choice.”
This is long enough so I will stop here. LOTS to chew and meditate on..I think some pennies may be starting to drop with me, but there are more that are stuck than I would like-God has a LOT more shaking to do that is for sure! My default mode is really frustrating to me.
2. How would you describe, with illustrations from your own life, ways to fall off the narrow road of the gospel?
Well, I think you can start off on the wrong path without knowing. Years ago, I thought because I went through months of religious instruction and became a member of a particular denomination, that that was what being a Christian was. Then I tried as best I could to follow the rules. When I got frustrated and eventually left that denomination, I worried a few more years that I had somehow been lost because I had left that church.
Looking back I see now it was all self-salvation strategy. Freedom began to come when I read a verse in the Psalms that salvation belongs to the Lord. That told me it was His and it came from Him and He gave it to me.
Yet I still struggle. It is evident in my thinking when I do sin or mess-up in some way and I begin to think that God is mad at me or doesn’t even like me much. That’s when I’m basing my salvation on my performance. When I’m doing “good”, I feel accepted, and when I’m “bad”, I’m not.
Susan are you home now from vacation? I hope that the trip improved for you.
Dear Elizabeth,
I am reading the comments, and I am so sorry that you are in so much pain! I will pray and I hope the new medication will help you, especially to get rest at night.
Anne asks:
4. I what ways do you think your life would your life be easier or more difficult if you left the religious or irreligious life right now? Please explain your answer.
I struggled with how I was interpreting the question, at first I thought of religious as truly following Christ, I thought of how in my pain I did cast about in my mind for another way, how at that point without the hope of Christ, suicide seemed easier than going on. I did keep looking to him, where else could I go? Really after writing this I think He was at that point and still is the lifter of head.
I then thought of religious in the narrow, rule following, outward appearance, Pharisee sort of way.
I am reading the book Elizabeth mentioned A Praying Life. He talks about how many of us feel we need to pray as a sort of system, to do it correctly, instead hr encourages us to approach God in prayer like children, impetuous, dirty, needy, trusting as opposed to feeling like we have do it right. He talks about his own children and the delight we all feel as parents in relationship with our children, he encourages us to think of God as a real person who wants relationship with us during prayer.
So I am thinking of my inner prayer Pharisee, who tells me that I have to praise God first, then confess, then ask, that I must wash myself off a bit before I come, that I should be calm and trusting when I pray. In other words, you are doing it all wrong, so you might as well stop now.
I have been stunted in my prayer life since my trial, I am admit I afraid to pray big scary prayers, but now even as I tear up writing this, I prayed about it , nothing impressive, just Jesus please help me in this.
So I guess leaving my religious prayer life for a more real, honest, continuous discussion with my Father, believing He loves me and wants me to speak to Him even when I am a mess, will be easier than feeling like a prayer failure.
Love this analogy — approaching God as children
I liked the Jonah prayer of crying out, looking toward temple, and commitment — seemed very natural — like children…
Chris,
You share really beautiful thoughts here. I’ve read many of your prayers you’ve written and posted here and to me, they are not stunted prayers, but you really express what is in your heart for yourself, your family, and the prayers you’ve prayed here for the ladies on this blog.
I can relate to that thinking that I have to follow the “P-R-A-Y” formula, and I too often fail to pray altogether b/c I think I have to have a huge amount of time and do all sorts of things during prayer. I so lack consistency in praying for even my husband and kids. I often feel I’ve been behaving so badly that what’s the use, God wont listen to me anyway.
I think your last sentence lines up with what Scripture says to “pray without ceasing”. Kind of like an on-going conversation all day long. “Jesus please help me in this” – we don’t need to be wordy for Him to understand!
This Keller talk was so relieving to me. I have struggled so often with those boxed presentations of the gospel but not sure why…This makes so much sense to me!
1-the boxed approach just will not work in this culture.
2-Salvation is of the Lord. Jonah 2:9 If you think you understand the gospel you dont if you think you dont you do. it is a lifelong process of more and more realizing the gospel. OH Religion gives you control…Love that quote. True salvation is by grace alone, a gift.
3-strategic.
(would have had better notes but I had to stop this MANY times, I cleaned up 3 spills, answered a handful of questions, made breakfast, helped little man potty, and many other things! ha ha the life of moms with little ones!)
Angela did you end up meeting with the boys mother last week? How did that go?
I fall off the path everytime I bring my idol of pride or trust my own heart into situations which require devinine intervention.
Sometimes I use secular thinking to solve spiritual problems.
In other words, my current situation will eventually change and in the meantime I have to learn to “be content in whatever state I am in”;trusting the Lord has my life in His Hand.
Here’s an anology:
I was watching my granddog Bella for a few days while my daughter, her husband and baby asher went on vacation.
Bella is a beagle, and if you know anything about beagles, they always have to be into something.
We were on a walk at the park and went a couple of time around the pond where the ducks were. Bella was sniffing the grass totally oblivious to the ducks. Beagles have a keen sense of smell, more so than other dogs because they the ancestrial backround of the beagle is that they were used to hunt rodants.
That night I let her out one last time into the yard. As soon as I slid the glass door to the patio, Bella took off after something, less then a minute she was sneazing running back to the glass door shaking her head non stop.
I open the patio door, and smell skunk! Bella got shot in the face full force by a skunk!
OMG, the house reaked and I had to give her 3 bathes. My daughter has a “de-skunk” shampoo made with natural enzyme which neutralizes dog, people, clothing, carpenting, and furniture.
I spent the whole morning cleaning the house when I should have been on the computer working.
But when I was done, I bought her a new collar and doggy cologne, because I love my granddog.
And that is how I feel how God sees me.
I pay no attention to the beauty around, the ducks or pond. But rather go after the things that stink!
He cleans me up, gives me new things and waits with the soap ( forgiveness) knowing it will only be a matter of time before I do something stinky.
lol…back to the lesson.
I did listen to the Keller sermon, but intend to listen again today because I was distracted.
Laura, that was so funny, but I know it was not funny to you at the time!!
no it wasn’t and bella knew i was not amused! lol
Oh Laura Marie — that’s horrible horrible! Great you have a sense of humor. Skunk is such a bad odor!
Laura Marie,
I love your post! Yes, I can relate to using secular thinking to try and solve a spiritual problem. I think your analogy about the beagle was really creative and it is true – how you saw that situation and how we are the same. Yes, thankful that God is always there to clean us up!
Wow! How awful that would have been! I worry my dog will have the same thing happen to her! Funny that your daughter had that shampoo; does it happen often?
Love the analogy about you being like the dog :)
Please pray for the victims and their families in the Colorado shooting.
Dear Lord, I don’t understand the madness. How can these things happen in our country? This is America. Thank you for the kind people who helped others. Thank you for those who prayed in the theatre with each other. I pray that the families can find some peace through knowing you, God. Please help them to seek you. I pray in your name. Amen.
Laura-dancer, oh yes, this is so sad-thanks for encouraging us to pray!
Lord, Sin is so ugly, so ugly, yet you so holy and radiant died for each one. This breaks our hearts, but breaks yours even more. I agree with Laura and ask also that you would cause these families to seek you-that those who don’t know you would desire to know you, and that those who do know you-they would run to you and cry out, and seek refuge under your wings. You are the God of all Comfort-full of Grace and Mercy, slow to wrath. Thank you for being so gracious and long suffering with us. In Jesus name, amen.
Praying for all the victims families and for the one’s still injured and for the family of the guy who done the killings…how hard this must be on them, too.
Amen.
6. What’s your take-a-way and why?
I think falling off the fence either way can happen daily. I am learning to pay attention to my body signals, my thoughts. I am learning to listen to them and then replace them with truth. Not to be flippant, but there is a lot of shaking going on to get the pennies to drop. God is pounding the wonder of the Gospel deeper in, but I have to let go of my pride in thinking my thoughts are justified, and I have to let go of the comfort of retreat and let Him pound it in a layer deeper. It is daily!
This snippet from Keller’s sermon popped in my head this morning after praying for the shooting. It stuck out to me yesterday too. My notes weren’t as good as the written notes Elizabeth gave us on that link, so I copied and pasted below:
Each person—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—seeks not his own glory but only
to give glory and honor to the others. Each one is pouring love and joy into the heart
of the other. Why would a God like this create a universe? As Jonathan Edwards so
famously reasoned, it couldn’t be in order to get love and adoration, since as a triune
God he already had that in himself. Rather, he created a universe to spread the glory
and joy he already had. He created other beings to communicate his own love and
glory to them and have them communicate it back to him, so they (we!) could step
into the great Dance, the circle of love and glory and joy that he already had.
I don’t know why, but the reality and the ugliness of sin has been breaking my heart lately both in me, my children and with the shooting, but what is written above is who God is-that was his intention in making us. The beauty is that sin has been paid for BY HIM. The beauty is that we can step into that great Dance now, albeit not perfect yet. It is wonderful that we can move closer in and higher up with him while on this earth, and better yet perfect in the future. All because of the price he paid.
I loved this too, Rebecca–the image of that Great Dance–beautiful–that we are allowed to participate in bringing Him glory, even in our wretchedness, so humbling
I just read this this morning and it just struck me anew as beautiful–Romans 7:1-6 “Do you not know, brothers —for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.
So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. ”
We have been freed from our union with the Law–we are His Bride now, under His authority, and He rules with grace.
I am so enjoying everyone’s comments and how the Lord is working deep in our lives. I can see it in all of us. Dawn, your comment about being legalistic in our prayer life and thinking that we have to pray a certain way has kept me from prayer countless times. That was an eye opener for me.
We go to the beach this week. I am very happy because Al flies in this afternoon. Fred can’t go to the beach so we are not leaving until tomorrow afternoon so that he and Al can have some time together.
I listened to part of the sermon last night and I know that it will take several listens for me. The condition of this culture is depressing to me and I struggle to hold onto faith that He can cast even this one out. I am slipping into worry for my children.
I will remember you all in prayer this week and especially you Elizabeth.
So glad Al can be home for a visit:)
Anne,
We just returned from the beach – the southern part of the Outer Banks in NC, near Beaufort. WE had lovely weather – I hope you have the same and enjoy your vacation.
My take away? From Keller; how our sin is so deep. i think he used the analogy of the demon within the boy, when Jesus says casting it out was not enough. This called for prayer. Also, the story of abrabam and issac, when issac asks his father if there was anything he wouldn’t do for God. All my own words so pardon my immature language! I think I got them mostly right :) so much to learn and so little time on earth to learn it!
A gift from God……Sarah came with the family on a “date” tonight! We just went shopping and for ice cream, but how sweet it was! We had fun! Thank you Jesus!
Such a good take-a-way, Laura-dancer. And good about Sarah too.
1. Falling off the fence on the rebel side:
A. How did the younger son in the story of the prodigal sons “fall off the fence” on the rebel side?
He went to his father and asked for his share of his inheritance, tantamount to wishing that his father was already dead, and then he left home and spent it all on “wild living”.
B. How did Jonah, in chapter 1, “fall off the fence” on the rebel side?
Jonah disobeyed God’s orders to go to Ninevah and preach repentance to them. Instead, he ran from the presence of the Lord, got on a ship, and headed in the opposite direction. He decided to run away from his calling and make a new identity for himself apart from God.
C. What do you know about the Ninevites (before their repentance) that shows they had fallen off the fence on the rebel side?
They are described as being wicked and practicing evil.
2. Falling off the fence on the religious side:
A. How did the older son in the story of the prodigal sons “fall off the fence” on the religious side?
He represented the Pharisees in the story. He made sure he obeyed the rules, but it was not out of love for his father. It was to feed his self-righteousness, and it made him look down on his younger brother without any pity or mercy. He didn’t see himself as a sinner. When his younger brother received a party, it was clear that he was motivated by the anticipation of some kind of reward. His relationship with his father, his sonship, was worthless to him.
B. How did Jonah (after he had preached the gospel and the Ninevites had repented) fall off the fence on the religious side? (If you don’t get this, don’t worry-we’ll come back to it in a future week)
I think that a big evidence of being on the religious side is being unmerciful. The elder son had no mercy for his brother, and Jonah, even though at first he appeared to have a transformation – he went to Ninevah, ready to sacrifice even his life if it came to that – he showed no mercy for the Ninevites. He reveals his feelings in chapter 4. The Ninevites repent and turn to God, and Jonah becomes very angry. He is angry that God had mercy on them. He wants them to be punished, wiped out. He did not understand the grace of God; that he, if he truly got what he deserved, would also deserve God’s wrath.
3. Comment on Anne’s testimony
Anne, what you shared was very moving. You have worded it so clearly and in a way that makes me feel like I’m following right along with you in your spiritual journey. I remember you sharing before how meaningful Nouwen’s book was to you, and I like how you brought the story of the prodigal sons into your testimony. You trace-out and articulate your thoughts so well. What really speaks to me is how you share that the Lord asked you to stop covering yourself before Him. Wow. Since the Fall, that’s what Adam and Eve first tried to do – cover themselves, and I guess we’ve found all kinds of ways to do it ever since.
4. In what ways do you think your life would your life be easier or more difficult if you left the religious or irreligious life right now? Please explain your answer.
I don’t think this is exactly what Anne was looking for as an answer, but the past week I’ve had thoughts of “you should just chuck-it all (“religion”) so you can fit in”.
The men in the family had brought my daughter to tears with their teasing and impatience with her the first day of our vacation. I was really mad at them. Then my one son told me that the reason they get irritated with her is because I am raising her in my image to be like me, and they don’t like how I am – Christians are just mindless robots – and I am kind of the outsider in our family (because of religion). Now what mom wants to be the outsider in her own family? I told my husband what my son said, and he said “he just tries to get your goat”, but that really hurt. I love this son and I sure hope and think he loves me, but it makes me ashamed that he would say these kind of things to me even if he thinks they are somehow funny or just being sarcastic. It makes me feel like I must not have been a very good mom, or that I’ve made such a hash out of living out the Christian life that I’ve made it look totally unappealing and such a turn-off.
But over and over I see the word “FAILURE” flashing in my head. Failure as a Christian, failure as a mom. Makes me think I’m sure not doing something right.
I know turning away from God is not really the answer. That would make life more difficult even if it seemed the easier way to get along with everybody. And I guess feeling like a failure shows I’m on the self-salvation path a bit. I wish I could get on track on the right path and at least feel contentment.
6. What’s your take-away and why?
I didn’t have time to listen to the Keller message but will get to it this week. I think my take-away is “like a woman without a Savior”. I think this pretty well sums up the falling off the path to either side. If I fall to the religious side, I am my own savior, working hard to obey and please God so He will accept me based on my performance. A woman without a (real) Savior.
If I fall to the other side, just give up and give in to sin and turning to my idols, I am still a woman without a Savior. Always looking for love, comfort, grace, peace, security, approval – in all the wrong places.