DOES HEBREWS TEACH YOU CAN LOSE YOUR SALVATION?
DO CHILDREN BECOME CHILDREN BY BEING PRECIOUS?
OR IS THEIR PRECIOUSNESS AN EVIDENCE OF WHO THEY ALREADY ARE?
Miabelle and Sadie (Dee's grand-daughters)
DOES AN APPLE TREE BECOME AN APPLE TREE BY BEARING APPLES?
OR ARE THE APPLES AN EVIDENCE OF WHAT IT ALREADY IS?
DOES SHOWING COMPASSION SAVE US?
OR IS COMPASSION AN EVIDENCE OF WHO WE ALREADY ARE?
Last week I returned to Nebraska to speak at a retreat and to see family and friends, for my home with Steve was there for so many years. I was able to have lunch with two of our beloved bloggers: Kim and Joyce. Each is so radiant with the love of Christ, evidencing the fruit that comes from being connected to the vine. At lunch Kim shared, as she has on this blog, how wonderful it is to be assured of her salvation, to know it is of grace, and that she cannot lose it by her behavior, for indeed, we all sin every day. She grew up in a denomination that teaches you can lose your salvation when you sin, so she was in constant anxiety. But now she is at rest, finding her hope in Christ alone.
This is from Anita Lustrea's office at Moody Radio
I have thought of Kim and those like her as we approach Hebrews — the book that is often used by those as “support” for the belief we can lose our salvation. There is a repeated warning, indeed, but the warning is to those who think they are saved, but are not. They may be trusting in a moment when they went forward, or had an experience where they tasted the goodness of God, or feel they are living a good life — but there is no ongoing evidence in their lives that Christ is in them. They look at their supposed “salvation” rather like, as John Piper says, a vaccination — and they don’t think about it anymore. But if the vaccination actually took, there should be evidence in their lives.
These are challenging passages, so we must slow down. (It’s so wonderful to have our new members here from near and far-away places — you’ve stepped into a challenging study, and I so hope you stay with us.) If these passages are read quickly, they could cause real alarm — if read slowly and carefully, they can actually give you confidence. But they are meant to alarm some — those who think they are Christians, but who are actually trusting something other than God. The author even calls them brethren or brothers, but the Scriptures are clear that there can be false “brethren.” They are in church, they may be singing in the choir and even teaching Sunday School — the pastor may address them as “brothers and sisters,” even though he knows some are not truly in the family. They may look like believers, just like tares look like wheat. But there is no ongoing evidence of fruit and relationship with Christ in their lives. They may be mean, crass, spiteful, and morose. Yet they would tell you they are Christians, that they said a prayer, were baptized, and had tasted the goodness of God. But how do we know if we are really saved? And do these passages in Hebrews teach we can lose our salvation?
Absolutely not. They warn those who are not believers, but who may think they are.
I want to tell you Carol’s story, in hopes it will prepare you and shed light on the passage we will be studying this week and this repeated theme of holding to our hope that beats throughout Hebrews.
CAROL’S STORY
Steve and I were new Christians and had just moved into a little house on Lupine Court in Indianapolis with our toddler, J. R. I was desperate for a woman friend and perked up when I met Carol who lived three doors down. Perky, pretty, and earnest — I immediately invited her down for coffee during J. R.’s nap. We bonded quickly and experienced the joy of feminine friendship. She and her husband Bob had been trying to have a baby after suffering a miscarriage. I was overflowing with excitement about my new life in Christ, and could not help but share. Carol listened attentively, if a bit uncomfortably. She was refreshingly honest with her questions. When I asked if I could pray for her to have a baby, she laughed nervously, but said, “I guess it couldn’t hurt.”
To our delight, it wasn’t long before she found out she was pregnant again. She told me, and said, “Maybe it was the prayer!” But just weeks later, she began spotting, and she feared her nightmare was happening again. Carol fell to her knees in the bathroom and said:”God — if you are real, and if you let me keep this baby, I will give my life to you.”
Carol’s spotting stopped, her pregnancy went well, and she gave birth to a baby boy. She had tasted, as Hebrews 6 says, “the goodness of God.” Does that mean she was saved? No — everybody tastes the goodness of God in His mercies, which are new every morning. Did she give her life to him as promised? No. She gave a donation to Care instead. The warning of Hebrews 6 is for people in Carol’s situation, who have tasted the goodness of God but not taken Him seriously. What are they falling away from? The wooing of God, the goodness of God. They are not born again and they are resisting His wooing.
But God did not give up on Carol. One afternoon while our little boys napped, Carol asked me: “It seems so arrogant to say that Jesus is the only way. Can’t there be many ways — Buddha, Mohammed, Moses, or Jesus?”
As a baby Christian, I wasn’t sure how to answer her, but I knew enough to say, “Why don’t you ask God to show you if Jesus is the only way?”
So Carol did. And then she flipped open her Bible and put her finger on a page, demanding an answer. Graciously, God gave the incident of the transfiguration in Luke 9:28 when Peter, James, and John saw Jesus transfigured on the mountain, his face altered, his clothing dazzling white, talking to Moses and Elijah. They wanted to build three tabernacles in their honor, but a voice came out of a cloud and said:
“This is my Son, the chosen One, listen to him!”
Luke 9:35
Carol was so excited that she came running down the block with her baby and her Bible, eager to show me how God had spoken to her. God had shown her, as the author of Hebrews does in the opening of Hebrews 3, that Jesus is better than Moses (better than Elijah, better than Buddha…)
Did Carol trust Him for her salvation?
No. I told her I was afraid for her. She told me she thought she was one of God’s favorite people — and she was not afraid.
The warning of Hebrews is to people who have tasted God, heard from God — yet do not take Him to heart.
We moved away from Indianapolis but stayed in touch with Carol and Bob. Years later Bob became very ill and died of a brain tumor.
Not too long after that, I was doing a retreat in Indianapolis and contacted Carol, who agreed to meet me for lunch. During lunch Carol said: “I heard you on Focus on the Family.”
“You are listening to Focus on the Family?”
Tears.
“Carol?”
“You can’t go through what I’ve been through without turning to God.”
I stood up and came to her side of the booth, sat down, and held her. She was different. And I have continued to see a difference in her — trusting God, serving Him, staying close by His side. Do those things save her? No — they are evidence that she is saved. Can she lose her salvation? Absolutely not. She did nothing to earn it and she can do nothing to lose it. He holds her in the hollow of His hand — and no one can pluck her out of His hand.
HOW CAN WE BE SURE?
If you are trusting in Christ alone, He is the Solid Rock. Stay close by His side — not to earn salvation, for you already have it, but it will increase your assurance that you know Him. A repeated theme, not only in Hebrews, but in the letters of John and in other passages is that your assurance that you are saved will grow as you stay by His side, as you walk in the light, as you turn from your idols and run toward Him. Does that save you? No. But it will increase your peace that you are indeed, His child. Rest in His grace. Find His perfect peace.
Sunday/Monday Opening Reflections
1. What stood out to you from the above and why?
2. Do you ever feel anxious about your salvation? How might you talk to your soul if you do?
Monday-Wednesday Bible Study on Hebrews 3.
3. Read Hebrews 3:1-6
A. Why is Christ better than Moses? What does this mean?
B. Meditate on verse 6. He says “we are God’s house” IF. What is the IF?
C. It is important to see that the author says we are rather than we will be. This is important. What is the significance of this?
4. Find the pattern to find the theme of Hebrews.
A. What is the warning of Hebrews 2:1?
B. What is the warning of Hebrews 3:6?
C. What is the warning of Hebrews 6:11-12?
D. What is the warning of Hebrews 10:23?
E. What is the warning of Hebrews 10:35?
F. What is the warning of Hebrews 12:1?
G. What is the assurance of Hebrews 13:20-21?
5. Read Hebrews 3:7-19. This is an illustration of all the warnings above. What is it?
6. How would you pray or counsel the person who thinks he is saved because of a prayer or because of being baptized, but has neglected God?
Thursday-Friday: Listen to John Piper on Hebrews 3.
It’s a hard passage and he is very helpful.
THE FIRST LINK BELOW IS WHAT I WANT YOU TO HEAR — THEN BELOW IS AN EXTRA OPTIONAL SERMON.
(EXTRA RESOURCE: THE SERMON THAT PRECEDED THE ABOVE)
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7. What comments do you have on the sermon?
Saturday
8. What is your take-a-way and why?
Looking forward to digging in to this lesson. I haven’t thought about the topic for a long time, but have been exposed to both “sides” enough that I have become content with the mystery.
In late adolescence, I was afraid that I might die, having forgotten to confess a sin. A pastor reminded me of Romans 8:1 (and given the era that I memorized it, I’m sure it is KJV!): “There is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus…”
I’ve gone back and forth trying to understand the passages intellectually, but haven’t feared for my salvation. Right now, I wouldn’t stake out a position on either “end” of the continuum, but I’m not in the dead center either :) If I go into more detail, I’ll miss church (though missing it wouldn’t jeopardize my salvation!!)
Renee — what a great beginning. Thank you! I want to share my thoughts, but also let you and everyone know that I welcome a thoughtful discussion.
For me, this isn’t one of the areas of mystery. What is mysterious, and this may be part of what you are alluding to, is who are wheat and who are tares? Who of those who think they are saved actually never were?
I am convinced that I cannot lose my salvation because I know I did nothing — nothing — to earn it. If that indeed is true, then I can do nothing — nothing — to lose it.
The question I believe Hebrews keeps asking is, “Do you know if you really belong to Him or not?” I think that has been misconstrued to teach that you can lose your salvation. We know there are those, like the Pharisees, like the older brother in the story in Luke 15, and like so many religious people today who firmly believe they are saved but who never ever knew Him. And that is what He will tell them on that terrible day unless they repent and come to Him.
Hebrews lets us know we can be assured we are truly His children if indeed our heart’s desire is to stay close to Him — for we would not have that desire were we not His children.
But I want to hear from you, why it seems a mystery — and from others who are unsure.
Thank you for Renee for not mincing into this but getting us boldly into it right away. I always love your posts.
Oh and this does break my heart because I see this so much in the south. Church is a cultural thing here. Many do believe they are safe in Him yet I am not sure due to lack of fruit in them. They hold on to that one time experience or their family background not making it personal…It is so hard to talk to these people because they actually believe they are safe. I just pray much but it frustrates me so. I hope this will help me be more gentle in it. I talk about this often with my girls.
My oldest told me the other day (The one who is so sensitive and asked if God is yelling) how to know she really meant it and is safe. We talked this through. I told her too I think that she would not be concerned if the Holy Spirit was not drawing her. Just submit again to Him. That is what matters. We do have a working out of our salvation with fear and trembling so I think she is maturing and it is looking a bit different to her in this stage. We talk alot about serving God because we get to show love back because of His love first. I know my true salvation walk has changed a bit in my life as I matured. I have doubted in the past too and come out more secure.
Dee,
What surprises me is that I jumped right in :) I often disengage when the topic comes up in face to face discussion. Here’s a recent example from lunch with a friend a few weeks ago (I don’t go to church here in town so sometimes am unaware of church problems; I do pay attention because I often think about attending church here, both for convenience and outreach): She shared that recently a bunch of people have moved from church A (evangelical church) to church B (largest evangelical church in town). I was surprised because Church A is Calvinist and Church B is Arminian; I expressed my surprise about people switching between churches which hold such different beliefs. Her response: “But how can anyone believe that people can’t lose their salvation?” Me: “Well some of us lean that way; I have Presbyterian tendencies.”
I think a big part of the mystery for me is who are wheat and who are tares, but I also think I have been influenced by my “context,” and am confused by terminology which may be used differently in different denominations. Plus, seeing this as a mystery might be a cop-out: 1) It allows me to not engage in Calvinist/Arminian debates which seem to go nowhere; and 2) taking a position on this has huge implications for evangelism, both inside and outside of the church. It seems much safer to wear blinders than to acknowledge any problems with modern-day evangelicalism (in most branches). I suspect that people in the church I attend have varying perspectives on the topic. My pastor believes that people can lose their salvation.
Several years ago, I read a book in which the author attempted to reconcile two very different positions. What I came away with (although I’m not sure this is what the author meant!) is that God drew me to Himself; this was a process — and once I was far enough in to the process, I wasn’t going to lose my salvation. But somewhere along the way, I might have chosen to turn away. I have questioned (challenged) whether salvation occurs by praying “the prayer.” BUt I’ve never looked deeply into Scripture to look at salvation as event vs process (I think I’d find both).
I absolutely agree that I cannot lose my salvation, but I do have questions about whether, people who (appeared to) walked with God for years, can choose to reject Him. I often hear the “free will” issue debated. So, my mystery is partly real mystery, partly not knowing, and partly avoidance of Christian battles. That’s why I’m ready to dig in!
This is great Renee. I suspected that was your real mystery part. I’ve got company coming — but I’ll be back! :-)
Just thinking that I should clarify something! I do believe that I won’t lose my salvation, but somehow I think it might be possible for people (including me) to choose to reject God. Although it seems contrary to God’s nature for Him to take away His gift, it also seems contrary to His nature to “force” people to continue to love Him.
I’m not so sure that “fruit” (or what appears to be fruit) is a good measure of spiritual life because only God can see our hearts, and because what is “good” fruit is sometimes determined in legalistic ways. Maybe “fruit” (evident at one point in time) is a general principle rather than a hard and fast rule?? Because apple trees don’t bear fruit all year, at least not here!
This topic is confusing to me; it seems that people tend to interpret Scripture through the lenses of what they already believe. So when someone says (to support either side) “this is what the Bible says,” all I hear is “blah, blah, blah.” Although I lean toward one viewpoint, I can spout off Scripture to challenge it. That’s why I’m glad that we are not ignoring these passages in Hebrews.
In addition, I’ve heard people interpret other people’s life circumstances through their own viewpoints. e.g., “Jane Doe accepted Jesus when she was 5, so I know she is saved even though….” or “Jane was never really a believer in the first place,” or “Jane backslid and has lost her salvation.”
Here’s where I am stuck (and am praying for God to remove my blinders and defenses): I don’t want to force my experiences (or those of others) onto passages of Scripture that are interpreted differently by different camps. I also know I can get sidetracked from leaning into/seeking Him when differences arise. My reluctance to take/develop a firm position seems to be coming (at least partly) from fear.
Love this Renee,
I am kind of on the same page
(Just thinking that I should clarify something! I do believe that I won’t lose my salvation, but somehow I think it might be possible for people (including me) to choose to reject God. Although it seems contrary to God’s nature for Him to take away His gift, it also seems contrary to His nature to “force” people to continue to love Him),
but I think as long as I can let go of it because I know that God knows better then any one of us, then I am ok.
Renee,
You have the mind of a theologian!
This is to Renee — but I don’t think I can get it in the right spot on the blog! But I’d love anyone to enter in to this discussion.
“Well, some of us lean that way, I have Presbyterian tendencies.” That made me smile.
It is harder to be bold face to face than it is in writing. I will pray God will give you another chance — because honestly, I think that if you believe you can lose your salvation, then you don’t understand the gospel. I understand better people struggling with election, though I do not, but this thought of losing our salvation means that it is not all of grace.
The warning, and we must, as Angela articulated, see this warning — is that there are those who think they are Christians and never were. And yes, Renee — it is confusing when someone has appeared to walk with God and walks away — like Hannah Smith who wrote Hinds Feet so beautifully. That really is a mystery. And yet I know God can work through an unbeliever, as He did through Cyrus (and a donkey!) yet that in itself does not make that person a believer.
Yep, that is the vers that I am thinking of if I talk to people about this and if I have to talk to me about it too!!!
Sometimes it is so hard to see people/friends/sisters ga astray. I have 3 girls Katja, Aruna and Martina that I love so dearly that came to Christ and got baptised and in whom you could see the difference that Christ made and still, they don’t live with Him right now. And it hurts. But on the other side – this hurt keeps me praying!!! And I believe that they will come back to him some time …
Glad you are back Renee, you were missed.
1. What stood out to you from the above and why? Love the Laura Story song. Love your precious pics of the grand daughters. My husband and I have this discussion often because we have a friend who is fundamental Baptist. He believes in using the KJV only and that you can lose your salvation. We discuss how sad this must be to never know, then how do you keep it anyway, by earning it by behavior and that is not a true gospel message. For we did nothing to earn the free gift offered. So my husband and I tell him we believe that is someone falls away like that we think they were never really saved in the first place. It goes round and round with this person but I believe in the security of salvation because He is a good God who gives good gifts. He is faithful and would not take it back. :)
2. Do you ever feel anxious about your salvation? How might you talk to your soul if you do? I really do not feel anxious, I know I am rested securely in Him. I suppose it has taken a long time to get there but honestly this is where “Falling in Love with Jesus” got me. God used it in a mighty way to see His love and how good or bad I was His love remained the same. It was a revolutionary truth because I always felt like I had to earn love so God must be the same. Then once He opened my eyes and heart to that solid security I have just walked a confident path ever since. I know by experience He will truly never let me go or leave me or forsake me. I think His favor in this is allowing so many trials in my life so I do keep my eyes fixed on HIM. I must or I will not survive. It is not an option, there is no where else to go. I prayed that He would do anything in my life He needed to make me least and Him most. He does that through trials. He did not need my permission but I think He can see the very sincerity of my heart in this. Hope that makes sense. Another reason why I hate depression because the way out is death and I am not afraid but would prefer it yet I have to remember to live is Christ and die is gain. So as long as He lets me live it is for HIM. That is all that matters and all I hope to proclaim even when it is hard. Yet now I typed that all I am feeling insecure. lol not at my security in Him but of sounding like something I am not. I guess you all know me who have been around to hopefully get my heart anyway. :)
Sunday/Monday Opening Reflections
1. What stood out to you from the above and why? 2. Do you ever feel anxious about your salvation?
That beautiful song, “Perfect Peace” is exactly what I have felt since God assured me of the truth that He has my salvation in safekeeping. I have no fear whatsoever of losing it and it is a cry of my heart that those I love could be fearless and certain of heaven too.
The pain of living without assurance of salvation came full circle when my dear father died three years ago. I found myself hoping he hadn’t sinned without confession before his death even though dad’s life held clear evidence that he loved Jesus with all his heart and served Jesus well. I know now I have no reason to fear and look forward to meeting dad again but what a shame that I worried.
Truth: “Behold, I have inscribed you on the palms of My hands…” This verse is one that gives me a constant flow of peace. I am in process of going back and finding all the verses that my previous church taught incorrectly and have had to read and study them in the proper context so that they no longer have a hold on my soul. Otherwise they might try to wreak havoc on my assurance.
Truth: “Behold, I have inscribed you on the palms of My hands…”
Kim, I think you and I have similar backgrounds when it comes to this belief. I come from a rigid Pentecostal belief that also believes a person can lose their salvation. This has always kept me in fear. Reading Hebrews 1 and 2 in this study and the Keller sermon last week, I never knew Hebrews is speaking to those who live in fear and face discouragement.
As a young person I always viewed God as distant and angry. Chapter 2 of Hebrews has touched my heart, because He calls us brethren.
I wasn’t going to comment, I was just going to read. But this subject is so taboo because I was told “once saved always saved” is false doctrine.
Yet as Dee explained “I did nothing to earn my salvation.” It’s a gift. What type of person takes back a gift?
What type of person keeps losing their gift and the Giver keeps replacing it?
I just thought of this while commenting.
I’m battling my worldliness. I’m also battling old behaviors.
Sometimes I feel I’m hanging on a very thin vine.
Sometimes I feel as though I’m battling legalistic dogma.
I’m seeing that Faith is a powerful gift.
Laura Marie,
I am so glad you commented. I was in a Nazarene church and they teach this to the nth degree. Having come out of it I am so free and happy and I want that for everyone. I knew when I read this lesson that people were going to be helped and I recognized it as powerful. I want to encourage you and challenge you to do what I did. I asked God to settle the subject for me once and for all. I asked Him to open my eyes and let me behold the truth. I didn’t want to be swayed by human thinking or philosophy but I wanted to hear directly from Him. It was a bit of a wait but oh, it was worth it.
Lord Jesus teach Laura Marie truth from your Holy Spirit, I pray. Reveal it as only you can and we will praise you for it! Amen.
Amen — I so agree with your prayer Kim — for all who have doubts.
Kim what a lovely prayer and encouragement to Laura Marie, you truly are as Dee said ‘radiant with the love of Christ’!
Thank you, Chris. He is beautiful coming through willing vessels.
Loved the Laura Story song. The photo of Grandkids is sooo adorable. This looks like an interesting discussion and study, though I am not sure how much I will be able to contribute. Guests here until Tuesday. Happy Canadian Thanksgiving.
HAPPY CANADIAN THANKSGIVING TO YOU!! (And thanks for the reminder, Diane. I’d like to email a couple people “Happy Thanksgiving wishes and wouldn’t have remembered)
Enjoy your thanksgiving holiday, Diane!
Lord — I pray this Thanksgiving might be a time of healing for Diane and Krista and their families.
Love you so.
Amen to Dee’s prayer, for Krista and for you Diane.
Happy Thanksgiving, may we all be happy giving thanks today!
Thank you, ladies, for your Thanksgiving greetings and your prayers. You’re love and concern brings tears to my eyes and is so encouraging. It is hard to be thankful when it feels like the world is falling apart for Krista. This is the time for me to trust and believe that God is in control and wants the very best for His children, though suffering is a hard part of that.
1. What stood out to you from the above and why?
Carol’s story brought to mind how God is persistent; how He is near and we are distant. We are all on a journey, each day walking one step closer to God or one step away; how thankful I am for the Lord’s patience and persistence.
By the way…I love Laura Story’s music; so much more than music.
2. Do you ever feel anxious about your salvation?
Most days I am confident about my salvation but infrequently I think, what if I am “tare” or a “goat” and don’t even know it?…what if I’m just orbiting God? I think this is the dark one putting doubts into my mind as is his tendency. I don’t rely on being baptized as a baby or growing up active in a christian denomination for my salvation; I know that I am saved by His grace and I accept the gift whole-heartedly and graciously. I look at my relationship with the Lord and I KNOW that He is drawing me ever closer, teaching me more about Himself and myself…when I experience God-incidences, I KNOW that He is near and I am His…Lord, I believe, help me in my unbelief.
Nanci, I appreciate your honesty and LOVE your heart so: “I KNOW that He is near and I am His..Lord, I believe, help me in my unbelief..”
“What if I’m orbiting God?” that’s very insightful.
wish we had a “like” button :)
Hi Nancy, you said exactly what I thought when I read Carol’s story. God kept drawing her in these events and she rejected Him but He kept persisting. This is the love of God that if we are not yet saved He will keep doing His part – this is what gives me hope for those I love who are yet unsaved.
Nanci J — I like so much what you shared.”I don’t rely on being baptized…but sometimes wonder if I’m a tare or a goat.” I can identify with that. I found the letters of John so helpful to me because he keeps talking about how our assurance can grow as we see the fruit of Christ in our life — as we do indeed, love our brother, as we do indeed, walk in the light. Of course we are not saved by that, but it is evidence that we are His.
1. What stood out to you from the above and why?
2. Do you ever feel anxious about your salvation? How might you talk to your soul if you do?
Loved the song and what came to mind is Romans 5, 1-11. In German we call this passage the gifts of righteousness. And who would pay for a gift? And who would say he was righteous at all times? This only comes through Jesus Christ and He does not take it back, it is for always!
Thats how I talk to my soul – going to the Word of God and find the answers there!
Inka, Love how God quickened you in Romans! We have been justified by Jesus’ blood-it is a gift of God and loved how you brought out that He won’t take it back, it is forever. :)
These scriptures have come to mind:
Ephesians 2: 4-10 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Then this: John 10: 27-30 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”
and this: Ephesians 1: 13,14 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
Thanks for the references, Rebecca :)
1. What stood out to you from the above and why?
I love Carol’s story and how God spoke through Dee as a young believer to tell her to just read scripture and let God show her if Jesus is the only way-and then how God showed her.
I do agree that this is dealing with the Tares..those who think they may know him but do not. I think that might be the scariest thing compared to someone who knows they don’t know him. Something I am concerned about with my boys.
2. Do you ever feel anxious about your salvation? How might you talk to your soul if you do?
Thankfully because of Him, no. I didn’t do anything to earn salvation so I can’t do anything to lose it.
I have had times of doubt in the past as satan has whispered lies in my head, but how do I explain this overwhelming desire like a constant stream inside to want to be nearer to Him-this comes from Him-NOT ME. :) How can I explain His quickening in His Word..I can’t even explain why I missed him so deeply when I was in bed with my idol. I can’t explain the longing I have for the future with Him face to face-no clouds that can get in the way-no rocks in the stream-no sin. He has sealed in me the desire for Him and the thirst to be in His presence daily. Even in the desert seasons like Keller said-a sense of God’s absence is a sense of His presence.
That said, I can easily allow the events of the day to get in the way-I can in a moment forget-I am so frail and can be deceived listening to lies-yet He comes.
I love your answer to #2., Rebecca. Yes, how do you explain desiring intimacy with Him, missing HIm….
This seems to be a common theme as I’ve read through everyone’s comments though, that Satan so desires to come at us with his fiery darts, putting doubt into our minds, wanting to make us feel unsure, insecure.
I have read Charles Stanley’s Eternal Security, in which he says that if Satan can get a Christian to doubt his salvation, he has him totally sidelined.
Susan — interesting on Charles Stanley’s thought.
Rebecca, I love Carol’s story too. It is a good reminder to me that I don’t have to save someone! I do need pray and be ready to direct them to the Word — but He does it.
Rebecca, I nodded as I read your ‘how can I explain’……
Love seeing your face in your new avatar!
2. Do you ever feel anxious about your salvation? How might you talk to your soul if you do?
Yes. Always I’m concerned about my soul. I’m always questioning my motives for reading the Bible, doing this study, praying and worshipping.
I have found myself taking Grace for granted.
But yet He still moves on me to seek Him, to call out to Him, to trust Him.
I like the Laura Story video and the powerful images.
This lesson is really going to stretch me because I have always thought I can lose my salvation.
And that is a fear I grapple with in my mind.
Thank you for your honesty here, Laura Marie. I will pray for you especially that through this study, you will come to rest SECURELY in your salvation! “Perfect love casts out fear”.
Amen in your prayer for Laura Marie, Susan!
3. Read Hebrews 3:1-6
A. Why is Christ better than Moses? What does this mean?
Christ is better than Moses because He is more that just a man. Christ is the builder of God’s house and Moses was “just” a servant in the house. Christ the son over the house and Moses the servant in the house.
B. Meditate on verse 6. He says “we are God’s house” IF.
The temple comes to my mind 1 Cor. 3, 16 with the Holy Spirit in us. Then the church. Church is not a building but people who believe in Him. And family of course. A family normaly lives in a house. So we should live together as a family!
What is the IF? And that we can do only when we hold on close to our Lord and His gosple!
C. It is important to see that the author says we are rather than we will be. This is important. What is the significance of this?
Because of the blood of Christ we are holy in our position. That means we don’t have to be perfect to be the house.
Love your answer to C, Inka.
3. Read Hebrews 3:1-6
A. Why is Christ better than Moses? What does this mean?
Jesus is a High Priest-He is God who is the builder of the House and over the House. Moses is a servant in the house who bore testimony of what was to come. We are His house if we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory. These were Jewish believers he was talking to and they were brought up putting their hope in their lineage, and Moses was a huge part of that.
B. Meditate on verse 6. He says “we are God’s house” IF. What is the IF?
IF we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory.
C. It is important to see that the author says we are rather than we will be. This is important. What is the significance of this?
This is very significant. I have some friends who interpreted it as ‘will be’ and they came out saying we could lose our inheritance if we aren’t faithful. So all of a sudden salvation became conditional instead of a free gift.
If we ARE his house we will hold firmly-even in the desert times we will miss Him and will come around desiring to restore intimacy with Him. Those who aren’t His will walk away when they suffer-when the going gets tough-they were never His house-they are the Tares.
What stood out to you from the above and why?
The song was soothing, reassuring.
I have been thinking about evangelism a lot lately. I thank you for sharing your life with Carol, and the story with us.
It is so hard to know if another person is saved. My brother in law, who died last fall, professed faith, but he was an angry, suspicious, greedy person. He had had a horrific childhood, his mother was a violent alcoholic, he and his brothers suffered physical abuse repeatedly and were taken in & out of foster care.
I can’t know what his relationship to God was. He did soften towards the end from what I understand. He watched Charles Stanley on television. I can only look on his outward behavior & appearance and have concern about his soul. God knew his heart, perhaps if he indeed had come to saving faith, without it he might have been a real monster.
I don’t know. I know that God has told us that He is not WILLING that any should perish, I feel certain that He is as merciful as He can possibly be, look at the lengths He took to redeem us. I am glad to leave it in His hands.
Yes — that’s what we have to do with those who have died and we just don’t know.
Bad fruit can be evidence of being unsaved — or, as C. S. Lewis said, considering his past, he might have been doing better than he would have. We just don’t know. So yes, Chris, we leave it in His hands.
Hmm… I like that C.S. Lewis reference. Good reason not to judge others too quickly.
Sunday/Monday Opening Reflections
1. What stood out to you from the above and why?
Well Dee, thanks for making me “blubber” with that sweet song you posted :(
I’m glad you contacted Carol when you had an engagement in Indianapolis. So many couldn’t be bothered because of one reason or another. It brings to mind my brother in law who will be in Tulsa Tuesday through Thursday this week. My oldest son lives in Tulsa and hasn’t seen this relative in years. I suggested they meet when my brother in law got off work on Tuesday. He didn’t think it would work out…..no car, business people would want to go to dinner, etc. Many excuses. I was sad that he didn’t think my son was important enough to “put himself out” a bit.
Not sure I am really saved based on your descriptions. I get angry, sad, and lose hope at times. I figure that is “human” right? I still want to understand God though. I don’t understand Him much. I am a slow learner; a baby, even though I have been a Christian all my life. God is a mystery. I wonder often why things happen the way they do. Then, I accept and move on. It is hard sometimes. It isn’t very often I have “the goodness of God” as you suggest (for example I get jealous that you, Dee, have two beautiful grandchildren in the picture you posted. I think, I will never have that because my children are so messed up). I suppose good things happen and I am grateful; things like a new job, strength in tough times, etc. But I rarely have things that I consider important just come to me. It usually has to do with a family member or relative. These things are always difficult and painful for me. For me, family = pain. Not trying to gain sympathy here, just stating facts.
2. Do you ever feel anxious about your salvation? How might you talk to your soul if you do?
I don’t feel anxious for some reason. I do trust God and I know he loves me. This brings me to something we touched on last week (and I think Keller did in the sermon). Some people fear death. I don’t know why, but I’m not one of those people. When my daughter was 6 (now 20), we had a conversation of a little boy who had fallen from a window in NYC (Eric Clapton’s son). She said, “wow, he is lucky.” I said, “why?” she said, “He gets to meet Jesus.” I was astounded. I don’t know where she got this but I’m guessing from Sunday school at church. I hope some of this sticks with her now that she is a “heathen.”
One more about this topic. There is only one time in my life I have felt completely alone where God was absolutely the only one who could help me through. This is when I was having a baby. I knew it was only me and God, no one else. I wonder if it feels that way when we die as well? I wonder if I should feel that way all the time? Hmmmmm.
Laura-dancer, you have a lot of heavy burdens and I am so sorry for your pain. You said “Not sure I am really saved based on your descriptions. I get angry, sad, and lose hope at times.” I can say I most definitely feel ALL of those emotions–angry, sad, hopeless–and pretty much covered them to some extent today! We know the Lord suffered much more pain than we can ever endure. As you said, He loves you–He is with you even when no one else is. Praying for you now Laura–
Thanks Elizabeth. I appreciate your words and prayers. I wish I could fully give myself to God so I wouldn’t even think twice when “bad” things happen.
Laura, I wish we could sit and talk and pray together. I pray that you will know without a doubt that you are His and He is yours and it would be sealed for eternity. Love and hugs dear lady. I am praying.
That is a comforting thought Kim. Thank you for your prayers, hugs and kindness.
Do you ever feel anxious about your salvation? How might you talk to your soul if you do?
I don’t feel anxious about my salvation anymore, there are too many ebenezers in my past to doubt that God has me hemmed in, I am beginning to see though how deeply ingrained in me some lies are that keep me stuck, keep me from really being sold out in faith.
I posted this last week, but this is what I have been chewing on:
REPENT OF YOUR DISCOURAGEMENT OVER YOUR SIN
“That believers must repent for their being discouraged by their sins. Their being discouraged by their sins will cost them many a prayer, many a tear, and many a groan; and that because their discouragements under sin flow from ignorance and unbelief. It springs form their ignorance of the richness, freeness, fullness, and everlastingness of God’s love; and from their ignorance of the power, glory, sufficiency, and efficacy of the death and sufferings of the Lord Jesus Christ; and from their ignorance of the worth, glory, fullness, largeness, completeness of the righteousness of Jesus Christ; and from their ignorance of that real, close, spiritual, glorious, and inseperable union that is between Christ and their precious souls. Ah! Did precious souls know and believer the truth of these things as they should, they would not sit down dejected and overwhelmed under the sense and operation of sin.
God never gave a believer a new heart that it should always lie a-bleeding, and that it should always be rent and torn in pieces with discouragements. “
This was a quote from Puritan, Thomas Brooks, it was in a TK sermon on Spiritual Warfare.
I have such a scathing internal dialogue going on most of the time. I don’t want to be ignorant or unbelieving in my understanding or regard for what Christ has done on my behalf.
I want to speak truth to my soul about the sufficiency of what Christ has done for me, I don’t want the voice of condemnation inside of me to keep me hiding and block the intimacy Christ wants with me.
This stuff goes deep, it took me a couple seconds and some internal dialogue to write the idea that Christ wants intimacy with me, for me to feel I am writing something true.
Great quote. Thanks for reposting it.
Thanks for sharing this quote, Chris. I can relate to the part about discouragement over sin costing me many a prayer – I figure God doesn’t want to hear from me right now, or that because I’ve been so bad, He won’t listen to my prayers anyway. Whent he truth is, and reinforced by this quote, that my sin, even the WORST of it, even the most UGLY of it, should send me RUNNING TO HIM, knowing I can throw myself on His never-ending mercy and forgiveness, and count on His love!
Can so relate to this quote! I think if we can stay distracted being busy all the time it robs intimacy with God. When we slow down we see it clearer, though some are forced to be slower sure to physical conditions all of it is grace. So if the enemy cannot get us through being too busy for Gods intimacy. He then tries to attack the mind. It for me is a very strict discipline of the mind. I must continually focus on Christ and His love for me. I must continually be on the look out for the strings of pearls, I must be certain I remember I have the mind of Christ all by faith in His word for me. I must converse all day long because I love Him and cannot survive without Him. I know this at the core. I have tried many things apart but they all are futile. He alone is our all.
Thanks for great quote, Chris. This quote is interrupting an emotional roller coaster!
1. I think that would stood out to me most is the interesting questions and comments from the ladies above! But I also loved reading Carols story! Don’t we all know someone like that? I was like that. I believed Christ was the way but felt better giving donations and organizing charity then relying on Christ to transform me.
2. I believe I am saved truly! But I’d be lying if I said I never questioned myself….not that I question the Lords ability to cover my sins but I do question my heart and intentions at times. I have to, during these times, surrender my fears to the Lord and it doesn’t take long before I feel His reassurance!
So good, Sarah. You have articulated what so many of us feel.
And yes — it is an interesting and helpful discussion. So glad you are a part of it.
3. Read Hebrews 3:1-6
A. Why is Christ better than Moses? What does this mean?
Moses held the law and belief as a human here on earth for God. Christ holds it directly from on high; from God. I suppose it means Christ is more directly connected to God and has more reverence than Moses. Moses represents us and what we could experience with God if we are willing to do what is necessary. We can only strive to be like Christ.
B. Meditate on verse 6. He says “we are God’s house” IF. What is the IF?
Meaning that we are the body of Christ. “if” means that some of us fall away from the body.
C. It is important to see that the author says we are rather than we will be. This is important. What is the significance of this?
He is saying with authority that we are right now the body of Christ, not that one day we will be the body of Christ. I think it means whatever state we are in right now, we represent Christ. We are striving to be more like Christ, but meanwhile he accepts us for who we are right now (from last week).
BTW….had to look up the word “tare” since I only know it in a scientific sense (to zero out a balance)! I guess it means weed?
I heard a good example not to long ago between the difference of a wheat and a tare.
They look the same yet you can bend a piece of wheat, wheat is flexable. You can’t bend a piece of tare, it’s course and will break.
Learned about this passage when growing up on a farm. I knew about the weed, but didn’t know the scientific sense of the word.
This seems a little “post-modern,” but at least in a contemporary sense, the difference between a flower and a weed is whether you want them there. I like (and plant) some wildflowers, but to a farmer, some of them are weeds.
Interesting thought!
3. Read Hebrews 3:1-6
A. Why is Christ better than Moses? What does this mean? That we all that are His serve and build, anything we help build it is really God who is the Master builder. We are mere stewards of His. Jesus was the SON. He is God. Moses is like us.
B. Meditate on verse 6. He says “we are God’s house” IF. What is the IF? Hold fast to our confidence and our boasting in our hope.
C. It is important to see that the author says we are rather than we will be. This is important. What is the significance of this? It shows that the “if” is present we ARE. So evidence of being HIS house is holding fast to our confidence and our boasting in hope. God gives us that peace and security when we are in HIM.
A. Why is Christ better than Moses? What does this mean?
Moses is the house; Jesus is the builder of the house. Jesus created Moses.
B. Meditate on verse 6. He says “we are God’s house” IF. What is the IF?
NIV: “And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory.”
NASB: “but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.”
ESV: “but Christ is faithful over God’s house as a son. And we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope.”
This troubles me, and I wonder if I’m not seeing what I am supposed to be seeing. So, this is saying that God is faithful in His part, but I am His house only if I hold on tight??? I feel sorta defeated if I have to rely on my ability to have confidence and boast in hope.
C. It is important to see that the author says we are rather than we will be. This is important. What is the significance of this?
I think I get the significance of the “are,” but are appears to be conditional on the “if.” So, I can only have assurance about the “are” at the end if I’ve met the conditions of the “if” ??? I’d be pretty messed up if my assurance of salvation rests on this verse, and I can see why people come to various conclusions. WHAT AM I MISSING?
4. Find the pattern to find the theme of Hebrews.
A. What is the warning of Hebrews 2:1?
We should pay close attention so we don’t drift away.
B. What is the warning of Hebrews 3:6?
“we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope.”
C. What is the warning of Hebrews 6:11-12?
Show diligence so that your hope may be fully realized.
D. What is the warning of Hebrews 10:23?
“Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.” (FINALLY some hope; motivation to hold on is His faithfulness)
E. What is the warning of Hebrews 10:35?
Don’t throw away your confidence.
F. What is the warning of Hebrews 12:1?
run with perseverance
G. What is the assurance of Hebrews 13:20-21?
Now may the God of PEACE, who through the blood of the ETERNAL COVENANT brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, 21 EQUIP you with everything good for doing his will, and MAY HE WORK IN US what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Whew! (Relief)… Yes, we do need to persevere, but He equips us to remain faithful. In other words, “hanging on” is a gift from Him too. I can get really UN-PEACEFUL if I stop at one verse. I have assurance because He made a covenant and He doesn’t break His covenants. (The church that had the greatest healing influence on my life was named “Covenant!”)
You got it!
If we are His children indeed, we will hang on, because He is making sure we do.
I was thinking about your consternation of those who seem to believe yet “fall away” — and thought of this verse:
They went out from us, but they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. (1 John 2:19) And then the next is so encouraging : “But you have been anointed by the Holy One…”
It’s like my pictures above. If you are hanging on, it is because you are His, and can do no less.
1. What stood out to you from the above and why?
That it is nothing at all that we do beyond believing and accepting Jesus as Savior that keeps us saved. Everything is a reflection of our salvation, but not the source.
2. Do you ever feel anxious about your salvation?
Recently it has come to the forefront of my mind. While struggling with depression and anxiety I have questioned whether this is showing me that I’m not really saved, that I’m going to be one of those people to whom he says, “Go away. I never knew you.”
How might you talk to your soul if you do?
I remind myself that salvation comes from the Lord, it is a GIFT. I have accepted and received that gift. It cannot be lost or taken away even if I fail and even if I struggle and question. I have not rejected God or his truths. I am living proof of the truth that in this life you will suffer many trials and tribulations, but fear not, Jesus has overcome the world.
Dawn–love the truth you speak to your soul–praying for you
Good good good.
3. Read Hebrews 3:1-6
A. Why is Christ better than Moses? What does this mean?
Moses was a servent of his house ( Israelites).
Jesus was made a Son over our house ( meaning our souls). ?
B. Meditate on verse 6. He says “we are God’s house” IF. What is the IF?
IF = meaning endurance to the end?
IF we remain faithful to the Gospel?
4. Find the pattern to find the theme of Hebrews.
A. What is the warning of Hebrews 2:1?
To give heed lest we drift away. To remain focused and steadfast
B. What is the warning of Hebrews 3:6?
To hold fast to the confidence. Jesus Christ.
C. What is the warning of Hebrews 6:11-12?
To not become sluggish. Looked up the definition of sluggish:
Lacking energy; inactive; unalert
D. What is the warning of Hebrews 10:23?
Hold fast the confession of our faith. Perseverance!
E. What is the warning of Hebrews 10:35?
Do not cast away your confidence. Perseverance!
F. What is the warning of Hebrews 12:1?
We are instructed to lay aside the weight & sin that ensnares us!
Preseverance!
G. What is the assurance of Hebrews 13:20-21?
I am understanding that ” perseverance “( although not used in these verses but to me seems to be an underlining theme)
will bring the outcome of completeness in Christ . By not having a heart of unbelief will allow the Holy Spirit to make you complete and do every good work which is the Will of God in you.
5. Read Hebrews 3:7-19. This is an illustration of all the warnings above. What is it?
Unbelief.
6. How would you pray or counsel the person who thinks he is saved because of a prayer or because of being baptized, but has neglected God?
They depending on works. Salvation is a gift and there is nothing you can do to earn Grace, other than accept and believe!
This is good Laura Marie. On G — I agree but might just clarify that perseverance is the evidence of saving faith and gives us assurance. The word complete is good, and in the Greek actually means mature — but sometimes in English has a different connotation — like salvation wasn’t finished, and that is not what is meant here. I think we are on the same page, just wanted to clarify.
Heard something my instructor shared at my Weight Watchers meeting I would like to pass along. I think we can apply this to life:
“If you want change in your life you have to accept the truth and not a lie”
Sunday/Monday Opening Reflections
1. What stood out to you from the above and why?
Not only Carol’s story, but more specifically, that Dee, this blog, speaks the truth. It’s not the popular, feel good message. I am struck by that today—this is truth. I am so thankful He has in His grace allowed me to know the truth. “She did nothing to earn it and she can do nothing to lose it. He holds her in the hollow of His hand — and no one can pluck her out of His hand.”
2. Do you ever feel anxious about your salvation? How might you talk to your soul if you do?
I have never once felt anxious about my salvation, but I know to take zero “credit” for that. I remember when I was 7, my best friend at my Catholic school saying “don’t you just wonder sometimes if God really is real”. I said “no”. I remember being quiet and thinking how incredibly strange that anyone would ever have such a thought. I am by nature very logical, very black and white, and by His grace He put an assurance in me that He is the One True God and I have never known it as anything but fact. I used to wish I had questioned—thinking then I’d be more interested and educated in apologetics…or have a more exciting story!
Such a picture of His having His hand on you.
A. Why is Christ better than Moses? What does this mean?
Both led the people of God out of slavery into freedom. But Moses was only a servant of God. Christ is the Son, and Creator—of us, of all, of Moses.
B. Meditate on verse 6. He says “we are God’s house” IF. What is the IF?
If we cling to the Truth of God’s Word. I’m struck by the words “hold fast”. Reminds me of Hebrews 10:23 “Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful” I like the NIV that says “hold unswervingly”. There is an implied turbulence to me. It won’t be easy. We WILL be hit from every angle. But if we believe Jesus is God’s Son, our only Savior and source of our salvation, amidst all the trials that will definitely come in this world, if we do not lose hope in Him—that He knows all, sees all, and has all things in His hands—if we remain in Him, He will remain in us.
I don’t believe anyone has it “easier”. In every storm, whether it’s a big one or a relatively small disappointment, I find that the only way I can pull myself out of the pit is to remind myself of Who He is. If I believe it, His character, the only option is to trust He knows what He’s doing, even though so often I can’t see it. Faith not sight…again and again. What also helps me is getting perspective. Nothing is more important than loving Him and showing Him to others. If I can pull back from my circumstances enough to remember that, I can usually find hope again.
This is so wise, Elizabeth. I shared your last paragraph with Krista, who is here right now. We needed to hear this. Thanks.
like your last paragraph, elizabeth!
Although I can understand this, it is SO hard to keep faith when your world is crashing around you. I am there right now. My daughter is so led by others and most likely will end up in jail next week because she has the mind of a 15 year old in a 20 year olds’ body. She makes horrible choices. I struggle with do I help or do I let it be so she learns and moves from these awful people? I struggle with her being brain “impaired;” a “normal” person will learn from incarceration, I’m not sure Sarah will. I have learned over the years that just paying for her to go through the court system doesn’t make an impression on her. Maybe sitting in a cell will? I don’t think my husband will pay her bail when this all goes through next week (see, what “normal” person calls the police station to find out when they will be arrested?????)
Meanwhile, she actually has a nice friend who is trying to get her to go to youth on Thursday night and go to the gym on a regular basis. Please pray for Sarah to realize her nasty friends are leading her down the path of destruction and this nicer friend would be a better choice for a friend. Please Lord, help Sarah. I pray and pray and pray and nothing seems to change. Does prayer really work? I don’t see that it does for me. I get the feeling God has this all planned out and all the prayer in the world won’t change a thing. I am discouraged with life. It is hard. Laura Marie says preservere and Elizabeth says to keep focused on Jesus. I, myself, said to have faith. It is hard. Lord help me.
Laura-dancer, Thank you for your honesty here. So sorry things are so rough right now for you. My situation is different but it seems like my world is crashing in around me right now as well. I will pray for you that God will send some encouragement to you in the midst of this, some hope that He is still there and still working, because He is. Look for the little things that are evidence of Him.
Hugs!
Diane, your hugs mean more than you know :) praying for you as well.
Diane–continuing prayers for you all–so so sorry for this painful time
Thanks, Laura, Elizabeth and Joyce and others, for your kind words here. I so appreciate your continued prayer support. Sorry I have not been contributing much here in the past few weeks. I just have had too much on my plate to fit in this Bible study as well, though I am reading comments as much as possible and listening to sermons. My thoughts and prayers are with you as you each struggle with your own issues and situations.
Laura and Diane, I’m so sorry…all I can do is pray and hope God helps :(
So if you see evidence of wrong motives or lack of fruit is it ok to question someones salvation? I have done this before but wondering what is better for their souls. I have done it in love but it still hurts the person. Makes them seriously reflect…I point out a Scripture that I cannot find the reference but it says to test yourself to see if you are in the faith.
3. Read Hebrews 3:1-6
A. Why is Christ better than Moses? What does this mean?
“Moses was faithful as a servant in all God’s house, bearing witness to what would be spoken by God in the future. But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house.
B. Meditate on verse 6. He says “we are God’s house” IF. What is the IF?
And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory.
C. It is important to see that the author says we are rather than we will be. This is important. What is the significance of this?
We are (present tense) not something we aspire to, but own now. (I am unsure of this answer)The significance is I think that salvation is ours now not a hope for the future?
4. Find the pattern to find the theme of Hebrews.
A. What is the warning of Hebrews 2:1?
Give heed that we don’t fall away.
B. What is the warning of Hebrews 3:6?
Hold firmly to our confidence in Christ
C. What is the warning of Hebrews 6:11-12?
Do not become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.
D. What is the warning of Hebrews 10:23?
Hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.
E. What is the warning of Hebrews 10:35?
Our confidence will be richly rewarded.
F. What is the warning of Hebrews 12:1?
Throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles
4. Find the pattern to find the theme of Hebrews.
A. What is the warning of Hebrews 2:1?
Stay focused.
B. What is the warning of Hebrews 3:6?
To have faith when it is hard.
C. What is the warning of Hebrews 6:11-12?
Be diligent, not lazy in faith!
D. What is the warning of Hebrews 10:23?
Be hopeful!
E. What is the warning of Hebrews 10:35?
Have faith!
F. What is the warning of Hebrews 12:1?
Be Christlike!
G. What is the assurance of Hebrews 13:20-21?
Praise God!
1. What stood out to you from the above and why?
I like the picture from Anita Lustrea’s office of the bench in the park. Finding rest in Him. Carol’s story is sure compelling. It makes me think of how gracious God is to hear and answer the prayers of an unbeliever…I could digress into the topic of predestination – Carol was obviously foreknown and called to eventual salvation, so God was gracious to work in her life prior to her actual rebirth. This is a mystery.
2. Do you ever feel anxious about your salvation? How might you talk to your soul if you do?
Sara P. said it well. I do not doubt God’s ability and sufficiency to save me, but there are periods where I doubt myself. Because the Bible says that my heart is wicked and deceitful, and who can know it? I have heard sermons about that day when Jesus will say to some, “I never knew you…” and it makes me fearful. What if my heart is deceived?
For some reason, my faith has never come easily to me. I used to “re-pray” the sinner’s prayer all the time, worrying that maybe I hadn’t been sincere or had left something out, so God didn’t really save me. Then, not so far in the distant past, I realized that it is not the prayer that saves a person, it is God. You don’t put your faith in the prayer, but in God. But then I heard a lady on the radio saying how she had prayed again and again for God to save her, but she still wasn’t saved, until finally one day she knew God had regenerated her. That scared me, because her descriptions of the times she had prayed for salvation sure seemed sincere to me.
I listen to a lot of different preachers on the radio, and many times one will say, “Now if you are a true child of God, then you will__________, or the mark of a true child of God is________”. If I look at myself and see that is something I’m not doing, or fallen short of, then it sets off more worry. Sometimes the more pastors and teachers I listen to on the subject, the more confusing it gets.
Somehow, I don’t think that God meant the issue of salvation to be so confusing.
Susan — you have such a tender heart — I can picture you re-praying the sinner’s prayer to get the words right. I love the verse in 1st John addressed to hearts like yours — if our hearts condemn us, God is greater than our hearts. He has brought you to assurance and I’m so thankful.
Susan–when I look at you and what little I know of your “storms”–you model for me such a steadfast “holding on” to faith amidst very difficult circumstances. You have waves and wind crashing all around you and yet remain “firmly planted”, holding on to Truth of Who He is, letting the Truth overcome the lies–such evidence of His dwelling in you. It encourages me so
4. Find the pattern to find the theme of Hebrews.
A. What is the warning of Hebrews 2:1?
To pay attention to what we have heard so we don’t drift away. I am thinking The Gospel..I am thinking of idolatry and the lies and how I must remember the Gospel and apply it every day to those lies. Also in the midst of suffering.
B. What is the warning of Hebrews 3:6?
Hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory.
C. What is the warning of Hebrews 6:11-12?
To be diligent to the end so that our hope may be fully realized. to not be lazy but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherited what was promised.
D. What is the warning of Hebrews 10:23?
Hold unswervingly to the hope we profess-for He is faithful.
E. What is the warning of Hebrews 10:35?
Do not throw away your confidence, it will be richly rewarded.
F. What is the warning of Hebrews 12:1?
Throw off everything that hinders us and the sin that so easily entangles us and run with perseverance the race marked out for us.
G. What is the assurance of Hebrews 13:20-21?
When I do go off track, God is my shepherd and he will pull me back in in His time-His way-he is faithful-He has equipped me with everything good for doing his will and HE works in me what is pleasing to Him-and it is all for Jesus to bring glory to Him.
-Oh and I have to add that up to this point I am starting to see how closely I need to pay attention and slow down. Hebrews is deep. I am not sure if I drew from this God’s intent in this passage or not in some of my answers above-but I saw a thread as I looked at the warnings..and by the second or third one I was thinking-perseverance-throw off the things that hinder us-idolatry hinders us, sin hinders us..
Good Rebecca. I think you were a little off track in a comment above and I missed it but are back on.
5. Read Hebrews 3:7-19. This is an illustration of all the warnings above. What is it?
Okay..So..here it goes. I could be wrong but this is what I see. I may need some help.
As believers our hearts can harden if we get lazy and we don’t persevere-this means the cycle of repentance and faith too..we won’t lose our salvation, but we will be stunted in growth and in experiencing a deeper intimacy with Him. I was thinking of my heart becoming stoney..I am thinking of idolatry as well. When I am believing the lies from my idols bottom line I am believing that Jesus isn’t supreme and forgetting the Gospel-I am walking in unbelief..it is easy to fall pray to Satan’s lies and run to idols and my heart can get hardened over time if I don’t listen to His voice. Looking back when I was in bed with my comfort idol I recall Him quickening me to turn but I didn’t trust God with my stress so I rebelled and didn’t listen. I forgot the Gospel..I didn’t throw off what was hindering me and turn-I was afraid to. I didn’t know it but my heart was stoney.
When I trust Him-When I remember the Gospel through suffering and when I sin I turn and trust Him-that is persevering and throwing off what is hindering me..Yet at the same time this is daily! I know there are hidden places in my heart-layers of lies and stones I don’t know about yet, but I know God is faithful and I know He will quicken me and strengthen me to turn-and I know He is giving me a heart of flesh-there are stones chipped away that were once there.
My heart was hardening before I came here to this blog and I didn’t know it- God quickened me to seek help so I can see, so He led me here. wow..
I also think next week’s lesson will help you with this Rebecca.
3. God is the creator and Moses the created! I think here those being addressed are reminded that Moses, who certainly in that time was most revered was not the highest one….this is where Gods people were first given the opportunity to accept the gift of grace…and just like today it was likely hard to stop depending on the law ( not that this should be rejected nor should Moses who here represents the law) and begin relying on the Creator of the laws and everything else!
B. the if is….If we hold fast to the hope! I think if we accept the gift of the hope.
C.This is everything….it’s not on us! I never read this and applied it in such a way. I love it! We have been seated at the best table in the house.
Sarah, you are absolutely right when you say with enthusiasm that it’s not on us. This is the very revelation that I came to and it is pure joy. In fact I would say before I was guilty of elevating myself to a god-likeness when I thought it rested on me instead of on Him alone.
Amen Sara and Kim.
a-pay attn lest we drift
b-we are His house if we hold fast to our confidence and our boasting in hope.
c-have the full assurance of the hope til the end
d-Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.(This is my favorite one)
e-dont throw away confidence that has great reward
f-run race with endurance
g-equip you with everything good that you may do his will, working in us that which is pleasing in his sight
He will finish what He started in us.
Why is Christ better than Moses? What does this mean?
Moses was a created servant
Christ is the creator, the Son, Moses was serving Christ, Christ is in control, any praiseworthy deeds by his servants bring rightful glory to Him
Meditate on verse 6. He says “we are God’s house” IF. What is the IF?
KJV
if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
ESV
if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope.
ASV
if we hold fast our boldness and the glorying of our hope firm unto the end.
NIV
if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory.
The Message
if we can only keep a firm grip on this bold confidence, we’re the house!
It is important to see that the author says we are rather than we will be. This is important. What is the significance of this?
That our identity in Christ is secure now, it is not something we are working towards, it is finished, the house is already built.
I liked the “you who share in a heavenly calling”
Made me smile inside this morning.
Confidence, rejoicing, boasting, hope, boldness, glorying, holding firmly to these things, looking daily at the gospel, making that my hope & confidence, letting it make me bold and boasting in the gospel, reassures me that I am on the path, I am part of the House!!
Reading the comments on my email this morning brought this quote to mind:
“To doubt God’s mercy because our faith is feeble, is rather to rely upon our faith than upon the Lord. It is not the excellency and great measure of faith that makes us righteous before God, but Christ whom faith does receive and apprehend: which a weak faith can do as well as the strongest.” ~John Ball (Puritan)”
Chris,
This is good… Thanks for sharing the quote.
When I spend time looking at myself —to see if I STILL have my salvation or if I REALLY am a believer or if I fit a “church mold” so that I won’t be judged by others — I get NUTS.
But it’s not about me; it’s about Him. (and a benefit of recogizing that and focusing on Him is that I get less nuts!)
I’m glad for your returning sanity, Renee. :-)
4. Find the pattern to find the theme of Hebrews.
What is the warning of Hebrews 2:1
Pay close attention lest I drift away
What is the warning of Hebrews 3:6?
I am His if I hold fast
What is the warning of Hebrews 6:11-12?
The warning is against laziness, I like The Message here:
11 And now I want each of you to extend that same intensity toward a full- bodied hope, and keep at it till the finish. 12 Don’t drag your feet. Be like those who stay the course with committed faith and then get everything promised to them.
What is the warning of Hebrews 10:23?
Hold fast to the hope I profess for Christ is faithful
What is the warning of Hebrews 10:35?
Do not throw away my confidence, it will be rewarded
What is the warning of Hebrews 12:1?
To lay aside sin which will slow me down, and run w/ endurance
What is the assurance of Hebrews 13:20-21?
Jesus is raised, He is alive, He is guiding me, He is at work in me equipping me to do things that will bring Him glory
Read Hebrews 3:7-19. This is an illustration of all the warnings above. What is it?
To be diligent in clinging to the truth, to keep my heart soft and looking at the truth, be on guard against sin and its making my heart hard and unbelieving.
I went back and made all the pronouns personal, it is striking to say I & my instead of us & we.
Chris — love how you are digging in, persevering, and making it personal.
Renee posted above that “hanging on” is a gift from Him, too. (she was wrestling with the IF we hold firmly to our confidence)
Cleaning this morning, I thought of the apostle Peter. Was listening to Alistair Begg and he said how after their leader died on a Cross, the disciples were a fearful group hiding behind closed doors. Peter decided to go back to fishing, thinking it was all over. He was ready to walk away from it all. But it was the Lord Jesus who brought Peter back, restored him.
I also thought of John the Baptist. He had seen with his own eyes the Spirit descending upon Jesus at His baptism, yet when in prison, he began to doubt, and sent word to Jesus, wanting confirmation, assurance, that indeed, Jesus was the Messiah. Jesus had to reassure him, too.
These two examples from Scripture can be some of the truth I speak to my soul when I doubt. If indeed I am continuing on, even though feebly, I can know it is Him giving me the strength to hang on.
Great points Susan. I will remember these as well in the future!
Thank you for the reminders Susan.
4. Find the pattern to find the theme of Hebrews.
A. What is the warning of Hebrews 2:1? to pay more attention because drifting away is so easy
B. What is the warning of Hebrews 3:6? to hold on because it is easy to lose hope
C. What is the warning of Hebrews 6:11-12? to check on each other because it is easy to fall into sin
D. What is the warning of Hebrews 10:23? to hold on to our hope because He is faithful
E. What is the warning of Hebrews 10:35? to not throw away our confidence because it will be richly rewarded
F. What is the warning of Hebrews 12:1? lets throw off everything that hinders because there will be a race
G. What is the assurance of Hebrews 13:20-21? the work that God does in us. He equips… I would take Phil. 2, 13 with it.” For it is God who works in aou to will and to act according to His good purpose.”
There is so much to lose so easy so we need the warning to have a willing heart, but (and because) in the end it is Jesus who gets us to stay with Him until the end. So lets remain and abide in Him. John 15!!!
It is Jesus who gets us to stay with Him until the end.
Frame it!
C. It is important to see that the author says we are rather than we will be. This is important. What is the significance of this?
Hard to “write” this as opposed to talking it out in person. We ARE because it is part of our identity, our make-up. It isn’t something to attain or aspire to. It isn’t anything we can earn or “become”. It isn’t about us, it is Him, in us. We are His Temple because HE did all the work already—there is nothing left to do to gain the identity that we are His dwelling place. It is done, because He said so.
4. Find the pattern to find the theme of Hebrews.
A. What is the warning of Hebrews 2:1?-pay attention, or you will drift. The drifting implies a slow movement to me—we may not even notice what’s happening. The preventative measure is to stay attentive, keep the truth ever before me.
B. What is the warning of Hebrews 3:6?
Hold fast, cling, to the confidence, the assured identity we have in Christ, and He will dwell in us.
C. What is the warning of Hebrews 6:11-12?
Don’t give up. Follow the path of the faithful saints before us who believed without yet receiving their reward.
D. What is the warning of Hebrews 10:23?
This is one of my favorite verses. I like the NIV “hold unswervingly to the hope we profess”. I always picture being out in the ocean, in turbulent waves, limited visibility, no shore in sight…and clutching to an anchor that holds me just above, just so I can breathe. But the waves splash against me, I’m cold, wet, and know that my only chance of survival is to hold on to the anchor. I do sense my fears, but my grasp has to be stronger than my fears or I will surely drown.
E. What is the warning of Hebrews 10:35?
Do not throwaway your confidence.
F. What is the warning of Hebrews 12:1?
Sin so easily entangles us and must be laid aside in order for us to persevere in faith.
G. What is the assurance of Hebrews 13:20-21?
Oh wow—I SO needed to read this just now. The same God who raised Jesus, our Shepherd by the blood of the eternal covenant gives me everything I need in order to do His will, and please Him!
I’m blessed by your answers and your picture in the waves. Doesn’t mean we won’t get cold and wet, but we will be sustained.
3. Read Hebrews 3:1-6
A. Why is Christ better than Moses? What does this mean?
First, the writer makes a comparison between Jesus and Moses – they both were faithful; Jesus to the One who appointed Him, and Moses was faithful in all God’s house. I’m thinking God’s house refers to the people He made for Himself, His children. But the writer goes on to say that Jesus is worthy of greater honor than Moses, because it is the builder of the house who has greater honor than the house itself. In this case, it is God who is the builder, and He is the builder of everything. Moses was faithful as a servant in God’s house, but Jesus was faithful as a Son over God’s house.
This means that while Moses was important as a prophet, and he helped communicate the Law to the people, he is not above Jesus. Hebrews was written to encourage Jewish Christians who were feeling the pull to return to the laws and sacrificies and rituals of Judaism, not trusting in Christ alone. The writer is trying to show them that faith in Jesus is all they need. He is above Moses, He is God’s Son, He is the builder of the house.
B. Meditate on verse 6. He says “we are God’s house” IF. What is the IF?
We are God’s house if we hold on to our courage and our hope. I am seeing this as not as our doing something to prove we are God’s house (cross-ref. 1 Cor 3:16, “Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you?”) but that holding on to our courage and our hope is evidence of His Spirit in us.
I think there are times we get tired and feel like giving up, or maybe even do give up for a time, but He will revive us and we’ll get back in the race.
C. It is important to see that the author says we are rather than we will be. This is important. What is the significance of this?
Hebrews 3:1 says that “Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling…”
This is also present tense. They are sharing in the heavenly calling now.
Verse 6 is an affirmation, an assurance, of the reality of their present spiritual condition, “we ARE His house…”. Actually, I don’t know why the writer used the word “if” – and not “therefore we hold on…”
If the writer would have said, “We will be His house if we…”, then it looks like we must earn a place in God’s family by what we can muster up on our own. And of course, we can’t.
I like this:
“I think there are times we get tired and feel like giving up, or maybe even do give up for a time, but He will revive us and we’ll get back in the race.”
John Piper might turn me into an Arminian. Or at least his message isn’t moving me closer to Calvinism. I have to confess that I listened to the sermon when I was grading papers :) At a couple points, especially near the beginning, I thought “Am I really hearing this?” (Yup, I was cuz I read it later) It feels as if he is approaching some of the Hebrews verses with the PRESUPPOSITION of “eternal security” and forcing the passages to fit. I wish I knew Greek, because this isn’t working for me in English. Plus, this is triggering some memories.
I do believe that I won’t lose my salvation (and that I’m a believer — or so I’m telling myself), but some of what he said (or I heard that he implied) seems as “crazy-making” as versions of Christianity I have been exposed to before — and I’m FEELING it :( with the same physical effects (but not very severe) as when I wondered if I REALLY became a Christian after all those evangelistic services, OR if I had backslidden, OR if I had committed the unforgivable sin. I was exposed to enough Christian ministry that I think I heard both Calvinism and Arminianism gone amuck, and I’m hearing something that is triggering those memories. I am reminded more of politics than of a place or space of grace.
I keep thinking of the KJV of 2 Tim 1:12 “I know Whom I have believed, And am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I’ve committed unto Him against that day” and the song based on the verse: http://www.hymnal.net/hymn.php/h/333 Both the “knowing” and “knowing not” reflect what I believe, and this verse/song spoke to my soul through many dark days.
After hearing/reading the sermon (although I will listen again under different conditions), I don’t think either the Calvinists or Arminians “have it right.” The problem is that for either “camp” to be logically consistent or make complete sense, it seems like I have to buy the whole package.
It seems that “logically consistent” is a limitation of Western thinking. Today I ran into an article that described the need for Western professionals to become “tolerant of ambiguity” if they are to work effectively cross-culturally. In addition, I can reminder a Bible School teacher shaking his finger at us and saying “You can’t put God in a box.” I’m not ready to interpret some of the Hebrews verses as stand-alone supports for eternal security. But I know enough of God’s character that I trust Him despite what I can’t reconcile (yet, anyway!).
This week, I can see that God has replaced (some of) my fear. One of my biggest fears has been church or “Christian” disagreements (WARS!). My walls go up so high and fast that there isn’t even time to look at “sides” of an issue (I think some of my walls went up before Piper’s sermon was finished) because I don’t want to be a casualty. Examining this issue is hard because some of the believers who have been most encouraging to me do believe it is possible to lose one’s salvation; they don’t talk about it, and I wouldn’t even know if I hadn’t been in some pretty deep conversations (people in positions of Christian leadership who live lives of grace and are gentle; I don’t doubt their understanding of the Gospel). Some verses that are starting to replace that fear are “that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one” (John 17: 21,22).
I don’t want to dilute or misrepresent the Gospel, but I also don’t believe that unity necessarily means agreement. And I have the “luxury” of having problems both with Calvinism and Arminianism — neither perspective provides a solid framework for interpretation of Scripture. I will listen to the sermon again (in a more relaxed state :) ), but first I want to see if I can find some perspectives from the African or Asian church (or find someone who knows Greek). In the meantime (and maybe forever), I’m content with ambiguity in the interpretation of some of the Hebrews passages that don’t seem to be consistent with other teachings which seem more clear. I do want to get into this deeper, and my “trusting Christians” capacity is being stretched. But (relief!), I’m just fine with trusting God!! Anyhow, praying for unity when people read.
I just ordered the Africa Bible Commentary. I was tempted a few years ago, and it’s cheaper now :)
Hi Renee,
“But I know enough of God’s character that I trust Him despite what I can’t reconcile (yet, anyway!).”
I love how this gives me the peace over things, that I don’t understand
Yes, and by reposting that “I know enough of God’s character that I trust Him…,” you’re helping me talk to my soul and have peace. Thank you!
For years, I’ve had the habit of avoiding (Christian) groups in which there might be disagreement. Although I like to dig deeply into different interpretations/viewpoints, I’ve been so terrified of the nastiness that sometimes results from disagreement that I either leave or shut-down inside. Even though I’ve been experiencing an inside battle all evening, God keeps drawing me back to Scripture and to this Bible study.
I think He may be providing healing another layer deeper, although it seems scary and premature to acknowledge that right now. Yet, I know I can trust Him.
Inka, thanks again for the reminder of His peace.
Oh Renee — I’m sorry Piper had that effect on you. I know he wouldn’t be too happy either for he certainly believes it is all of Christ. Maybe it was grading papers. These are very hard passages. But hang on, dear one — I think (but may be surprised) that next week will bless you.
Listening to Keller on James today and having him discern the difference between professing faith and possessing faith — I think that is much of what Hebrews is about — warning those who profess but don’t possess. In their head, not heart.
You wouldn’t be in so much anguish if it were not in your heart.
I don’t often recommend Piper because he doesn’t move my heart like Keller, but I actually liked this one. But — not for everywone!
I’ve found much of Piper’s work helpful, but this struck a nerve. Still plan to listen again (when I’m not grading!)
I am here, ladies. Mostly reading, but here. I am truly touched by your love and prayers. Yes, a lot of going on in my life, but I am not giving up. I’m leaning on Him, and I’m fighting for my marriage.
Glad you’re here. Love to you!
Hope things are better, Krista…been praying for you. I’ve been so busy with my daughter and family get-to-gether’s…but she leaves thursday morning from Omaha. Please pray for her safe trip and for her sister and brother and I, as it is so hard for us to see her go:( It usually takes me three days to get back to normal, after she goes home. All I can do is cry…I know I’m a big baby. If it was more often, it wouldn’t be so hard. Thanks. I’ve been trying to keep up with all your comments…they are all so good and I’m really enjoying everyones discusions. Love you!
Oh Joyce — it is so hard to have her so far way — praying for you, dear one.
Joyce, Glad you have been able to spend time together. I’ll be praying for all of you as she leaves.
Dear Krista,
Continuing to pray for you, and remember, you have One who is fighting with you, and for you.
So praying for you, Krista.
so thankful to see your name and your boys pop up here Krista! we are praying for you–you are loved and cared for here. thankful you are clinging to Him!
5. Read Hebrews 3:7-19. This is an illustration of all the warnings above. What is it?
The warning is against unbelief. There is a difference between seeing a miracle and believing that God did it, or believing in God and Jesus Christ and that he is alive and that we can trust Him at all times and in all circumstances.
6. How would you pray or counsel the person who thinks he/she is saved because of a prayer or because of being baptized, but has neglected God? I would probably ask the person what he/she believes about God, would explane the gosple again, would exlain him/her where his sin was (the unbelief), and would ask him/her if he/she was ready to put all of his/her trust in Jesus Christ.
I think of so many different situations where I would do it in another way, but one always have to listen to the Holy Spirit before you start a converstation like this!
Yes — that’s so true, Inka — about listening to the Spirit. So good. Had lunch with an unbelieving friend yesterday and kept praying, “Lord show me what is keeping her from You?”
Inka-
Great point my mom used to always say to us as children….the devil knows that Jesus is the Son of God and Our only hope….it’s not knowledge of the truth that changes you…it’s loving the truth!
I like that, Sarah
5. Read Hebrews 3:7-19. This is an illustration of all the warnings above. What is it?
That if we don’t perservere then we will not enter “my rest.” does this mean heaven or peace here on earth?
6. How would you pray or counsel the person who thinks he is saved because of a prayer or because of being baptized, but has neglected God?
This would be my daughter. Counsel wouldn’t work because she won’t listen to me at all. I would pray for her heart to change so she would actually know Jesus, she would see His sacrifice for her, and she would want to be more like Him.
Laura Dancer,
Thanks for this..I am sure a lot of parents with adult children can relate to this! A lot of times our children won’t listen to us and especially when they leave home. I have no clue what will happen when my oldest two leave home..I will pray that God would bring believers into her life who will minister to her. That movie Blue Like Jazz was a great illustration of this as far as that boy seeing Jesus in a girl in college and God worked in her to open his eyes. God moves differently in every situation though so I will keep praying for her. :)
I still need to see that movie. Is it one I could find at my library (old)? Or would Netflix have it?
netflex has it
I can relate to this too, Laura. My 18 year old will not listen to me talk about anything spiritual. When we visited him a couple weeks ago, during dinner, I was just telling him about a visit we had at church from a couple who are missionaries in Israel. I didn’t think I was “preaching” at him, as I was just talking about them. He stopped me and firmly said, “Mom – I DON’T CARE”.
Sometimes we moms have to accept that it won’t be us that God uses in their lives. So I pray (for him) that there must be some students on campus who are Christians and God will send them his way. You can pray for Sarah that God will send believers to intersect the path of her life, too.
Wow Susan, isn’t it difficult to hear your own child say these things? I so relate :( yes, I have prayed for people of faith to enter my children’s lives. I am fairly certain it won’t be me who has an effect. I have considered our you vest being that person. He is a faithful (mostly – he’s 15!) servant of God.
Susan, I feel for you, as it is so hard when our kids snap at us, especially about things of God, as we love them so much and want them to be believers so bad.
6. How would you pray or counsel the person who thinks he is saved because of a prayer or because of being baptized, but has neglected God?
This is a tough one. I would pray first and foremost for their heart to be softened and that the Holy Spirit would open their eyes if they don’t know Him and I would pray first for God’s quickening before I counsel. I would ask questions about their understanding of Jesus-who He is and what His death and resurrection means..I would give them passages of scripture to read and pray that God would move in their hearts. I would also give them Keller Sermons to listen to. I like the one called, knowing you know God..
5-just because you are outwardly following does not mean you are inwardly. Don’t harden your hearts. Follow Him with your whole dedicated heart. I like too how we should encourage one another everyday away from hardheartedness.
I remember one time I was struggling really hard with my heart. Crying out to God because i could feel it wanting
to become hardened in an area. I asked my friends to pray. God was gracious and brought me through.
6-That it is not about outward things like a prayer or baptism, or even a one time experience. It is about embracing Him fully in the heart that He will have full control of your life. There will be evidence as His Spirit works in their lives. There will be a desire to know Him and grow closer.
So good, Angela.
Angela–like how your pointed out the part about encouraging one another–so true, so wise
I am reading Idol Lies still and a couple of things jumped out at me. I lived in Texas 23 years and had no idea of the prison conditions. I am sorry Dee for questioning you about visiting these prisons in an earlier post a year or so ago. I am one of those who believes the people who commit crimes should be justly punished. However, after reading about the heat (I know it well) and the deaths that Dee spoke of, I certainly don’t condone these types of inhumane conditions. I really can’t believe it is that way.
Secondly, after reading the story of Leah and the woman at Dee’s speaking engagement who was devastated by her husband divorcing her, I am struck that my mantra must be, “if my children behave/go to college/have a good job/are good citizens (insert whatever adjective you like), then I am a good mother.” I guess I get confused because I feel like God wants me to be a good mother, right? I suppose it is when you take it to a higher level where you have to watch the Idol “lie.”
Laura-dancer
Thanks for your compassionate words. I love your heart.
Of course God wants you to be a good mother. But it is possible to be a good mother and still have a rebellious child. God lost a third of His angels. Our identity must be in Christ, not in the success of our mothering, marriage, or ministry. We endeavor to be faithful, to walk in repentance — but must leave results to Him. If we are downcast, it is likely that our hope is not in Him.
Love to you
Good points about the angels….I forget sometimes…
Laura-dancer
I just read this..oh.. Dee is so right..I have thought about this too…I think about Adam and Eve and their rebellion..God is a perfect parent yet they rebelled. :-)
Oh wow…..
Oh Dee, thanks for your response above. I was in anguish and last night I debated with myself about whether to email you and ask you to edit out most of my response. But I didn’t even know what to write in an email! Definitely more sane after reading Scripture and keeping on coming back to this blog :-)
What I was reminded of again today is that God has used and is using this anguish to prepare me to work with people who have rejected the church or people that are afraid they will be misunderstood by (or misunderstand) believers.
I realized that I didn’t answer #6, maybe because of my initial reaction to the question, but also because of what I realized was my “real” answer.
“How would you pray or counsel the person who thinks he is saved because of a prayer or because of being baptized, but has neglected God?” My initial reaction was that I might be the one others would label as neglecting God. I know a few people seem to equate the following list with lack of fruit/neglecting God:
-poor church attendance (and some of it is a legit concern, but much was due to travelling or caregiving responsibilities)
-talking to atheists
-not being able to bring food (or the right kind of food) to a specific place at a specific time
-caring a lot about people at the margins who don’t “earn their own way”
-depression and other illness
I used to hear the lines regarding baptism or praying a certain prayer when I was growing up. I don’t hear them as much anymore, probably for a couple reasons: 1) who I’m around (either those who don’t seem to have neglected God or those who don’t claim to be Christians at all), or 2) — and I don’t like this response: I’m not paying attention or engaging in conversation which would even elicit this info (I can think of a friend who moved that might fit the description of neglecting God, although she can rattle off church doctrine).
My standard behavior: If I thought that the Holy Spirit were leading me to talk with someone who fits this description, I’d first fight and whine and ask God to send someone else! And then, after a little while, I’d surrender , pray for sensitivity and humility for myself, and for God to direct the conversation, and to prepare the other person. Only the Holy Spirit convicts of sin; I’d probably ask questions, do a lot of listening and praying, and maybe point the person to Scripture (if s/he didn’t bring it up first). I’d also want to avoid a “better than” approach, because my limited knowledge and observation might not be providing an accurate picture. Sometimes outward sin might be evidence that someone is neglecting God; but in other situations, problems don’t always immediately disappear when someone becomes a Christian. I’m not sure this is the right answer, but unless I’m willing to walk alongside someone who is struggling with sin, both she and I might be better off if I keep my mouth shut. I can always pray, but would want to be very cautious with counsel.
Just remembered a verse I learned a zillion years ago– James 5:20: “Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.” This tells me I shouldn’t ignore the person or the Holy Spirit’s prompting, but I also don’t want to assume that someone is neglecting God. I would need discernment and compassion.
Oh — we all need the discernment and compassion and care that you have, Renee.
This is a very thoughtful post, Renee. I love how much time and care you put into your answers. I can tell you REALLY think through your answers. I love this, “…unless I’m willing to walk alongside someone who is struggling with sin…”
How often I’m willing to point out the sin, but not get in the trench with them.
Thanks, Dee and Susan, for your encouragement :)
I also love your answers and your heart, Renee. Wish I had time to think and respond more deeply to your obvious struggles. You have been “burned” by others, but it is obvious that you want to follow Christ, not just superficially but sincerely and sensitively. I was just reading the Sermon on the Mount this morning and you remind me of one who “hungers and thirsts after righteousness” (as do so many on this blog). God bless you for your honest heart for Him.
Thanks :)
5. Read Hebrews 3:7-19. This is an illustration of all the warnings above. What is it?
Do not harden your hearts with complaining and unbelief.
Going back to 3:6 for a minute—we do not become God’s house by holding fast in trials—it is our faith that is evidence that we are God’s house. I see the tie-in now of Dee’s points above—an apple tree does not become an apple tree by bearing apples, but the apples are proof of it’s identity. Our faith is the evidence that we are His. It’s not an “if-then” relationship…’if we do this (holding on tight) then we’ll be saved..’ The steadfast holding on through trials is the evidence, the fruit of His gift—it is all from Him and of Him.
6. How would you pray or counsel the person who thinks he is saved because of a prayer or because of being baptized, but has neglected God?
My hope would be to get to their heart. I might ask them what led to the baptism/prayer—what they had hoped to get from it. Did they just want “fire insurance” or to really surrender their life and have a relationship with the Lord? Maybe I would ask if they are trusting in the act (prayer/baptism) to save, or the Person of Christ? If they are trusting in Christ Himself, there is an implied relationship—and relationships require time, heart, submission…What do they do when trouble comes if there is no relationship to call on?
Elizabeth gave me this link that may be helpful to those of you struggling with “Can I lose my salvation?”
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2012/01/09/warning-passages-ahead/
If I were to sum it up, the warnings of Hebrews are to those who profess faith but do not possess faith. It is like the different soils in the parable Jesus told — some receive the Word gladly, but there is no root. When we are holding fast to the faith, it is evidence of a root — He is holding onto us. Elizabeth referred to the pictures above — the apple tree — a real apple tree bears apples as evidence that is is an apple tree.
I know this is hard and I’m praying for all of you.
I also believe this is not to judge others, for Jesus told us we would make mistakes if we tried to sort wheat from tares, but to look at our own hearts to see if we are in Him.
I remember a Baptist pastor Steve and I had early in our Christian life who, when he saw my great concern, said, “Dee — your great concern is evidence that you are His.”
Thanks, Elizabeth and Dee, for sharing this. My struggle isn’t primarily about my salvation but interpretation of Scripture (but it can lead to a salvation struggle if I take the interpretation struggle too far).
I loved the bolded paragraph, how the question is framed:
“Some Reformed teachers find it hard to teach the five warning passages of Hebrews (2:1-4; 3:7-4:13; 5:11-6:12; 10:19-39; 12:14-29). How do we reconcile our theology with what appears to many to be the plain meaning of these passages, that believers can lose their faith?”
I feel more honest/peaceful looking at these passages in the light of reconciling them with Reformed theology. What I was struggling with was interpreting the verses in a way that doesn’t seem the most obvious meaning in English — UNLESS you are reading them with the assumptions of Reformed theology.
I can do that (sanity completely restored) ;) But I still want to check out the perspectives of non-Western theologians or theologians around the time of Augustine and earlier!
More thinking: “Interpretation of Scripture” was a deeper struggle than questioning my salvation. But a bigger issue than that is trust — This is hard to admit, but I didn’t (don’t) want to “subscribe” to a “Reformed” view if I’m not all the way there. (And — yeah — I recognize the idols =) ). This has been a huge insight for me and (I’m praying) a big step in taking down defensive walls (though not necessarily online!!)
4.
2:1 Take heed so we don’t fall away.
3:6 hold fast and cling to the promises given.
6:11-12 do not become sluggish.
10:23 Hold fast without wavering to our hope.
10:35 do not cast away our confidence.
12:1 lay aside our weights and sin that ensnare us. – I love the way this is stated here. It clicks in my heart immediately.
13:20-21 Through the blood…make me complete.
So good you are contemplating and clicking!
How would you pray or counsel the person who thinks he is saved because of a prayer or because of being baptized, but has neglected God?
I hope that I would pray before & during the conversation, asking for wisdom and insight.
Asking the person questions and then really listening to them, allowing them to listen to themselves, sharing a bit of my journey, what Christ means to me, praying that they will taste and see that the Lord is good, they don’t need to hid from Him if they are staying away because they fear God or their own sin too much.
If they don’t fear Him enough I would perhaps try to get them to ponder their own mortality, the way life seems to be rushing by while we are busy doing things that won’t matter for eternity. To think about standing before God one day, and what will justify them if they ignore so great a salvation.
Bill and I are in Georgia for a wedding this weekend, we are really blessed to be staying by the ocean. I got up early today and saw the sun rise, contemplating the richness of creation and that He holds it together by the power of His Word. Looking at the great detail of the shells, the colors & patterns of these little creatures no one but Him usually even sees, I thought about his care for the birds, and wondered if He also knew each of the former inhabitants of the little shells I was collecting.
Looking at the rich colors of the shells, I wondered what our bodies will be like in Heaven, I have an idea girls that we are going to be pretty splendid!
Krista & Diane, I am praying for you to hold fast in the trial, for trust & obedience, and that every purpose God has in this trial will be accomplished.
Laura dancer, I am praying for your faith to be stretched and grown by you difficulties, and for Sarah to see Gods great love for her, and stop running to destructive things.
Susan praying that your love for Christ will give you peace and that your love will overflow onto your family members, that they will see Christ in you in a way that will soften them
Renee I love your contributions here, your deep thoughts stimulate all of us, I pray for peace assurance & clear understanding for you
Joyce when my kids leave and I know I won’t see them again for awhile, I try to turn in my mind very purposefully from being sad, to being ever so grateful that God gave them to me to parent & that we had time together. I wish I could hug you!
Dee I hope your company has been a blessing, thank you for your care here to us, for feeding us sheep!
Elizabeth how is your pain, are you doing okay?
Thinking of you on that beach…
So glad you are at the beach — and encouraging us from it, Chris. Loved your analogy with shells and our bodies in heaven!
Love your thoughts about heaven, Chris — and observations of nature.
Made me realize that I could take time looking for patterns in the frost while I scrape my car windows :) I look for patterns everywhere else, but complain about scraping frost off the car, while I actually could be enjoying it (at least until temps are subzero!!)
I love frost patterns too Renee!
Chris, I feel so guilty just “missing” my daughter, after a visit, when you lost your son, tragically. I do feel so blessed to have had her here for 11 days and now she is safely back with her husband. Your right, I am so blessed to have had the Lord loan my children to me to raise. All we have to do is look around, to feel so blessed. I can’t imagine losing a child…your such a blessing to us, Chris. Thank you.
Don’t feel guilty Joyce, I understand missing a child, I didn’t mean for you to feel bad about sharing how hard parting is.
oh Chris, you are so other-centered…such a beautiful heart! Love your thoughts too on the shells–the details He creates just because He loves to create, for our pleasure, and to make things beautiful…praying for this time you have with Bill too
You dear Elizabeth are the “other centered” one I think, I do admire that in you, thank you.
I just listened to the extra optional sermon (first). I think I have to re-listen, there was a lot in there. He talked about how much we hear the words “unconditional love” in sermons and books, but he says that “justifying and sanctifying love is not unconditional”. After listening to this, I feel there are probably fewer authentic Christians than we think. It’s not so reassuring to someone like myself, who struggles so much with doubt or who admits to God that I don’t love Him like I should.
Okay this is my second go round here…my sweet and busy husband accidentally deleted my responses bc he was using my stuff when I stepped away! : )
5. Do not harden your hearts. I might be totally side tracked here…but I have to say something. There are a lot of people who are afraid of this warning because they question themselves and then I have run into people that think it sounds too harsh. I have lived that moment that is warned of…hardening my heart. It was almost like whistling in the dark, trying to distract myself from what I was actually doing. I would go to church or here a sermon on the radio, I would feel the pull of the Holy Spirit to let go, but I would choose to harden myself. Sometime I would tell myself “tomorrow” or “after this pack of smokes…” “After this party…” While other times I would just drown out the calling by running away from it completely. It is a physical and very conscious act to harden your heart…it can’t happen to you on accident and although we all give into moments of sin…an extra piece of pie when we aren’t even hungry or bickering with a spouse…this warning I believe is talking about a greater form of rejection or hardening. It’s the soul risking one….if that makes sense. Not to say that any sin is acceptable…but I think that when you harden your heart too many times it just becomes numb to the calling of the Holy Spirit….and that is when you are too far gone for The Lord to reach you….not that He doesn’t want to save you, but you can’t even hear Him anymore…you’ve been drowning Him out for so long.
6. I do know and dearly love some people who believe that because they said a prayer or walked up to the front of church once…they are saved forever. I pray The Lord woos them the way He did me. And I try to offer support when I get the opportunity to bring the subject up with these friends and family members.
Sarah, I can identify with you on this subject. I’m so glad we listened to his gentle wooing:)
Sarah your hardening of he heart comments are so good. Now that we see how great His love is, how can we think of wounding Him more by not listening to His voice?
After listened to both sermans I realy needed to read Galations 5, 1 “It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a youke of slavery”
Yes and I am all for serving and useing your gifts to serve the church. Romens 12 is one of the chapters I love most in the bible,and I am a missionary …, but that was a lot of pressure. The thing that is most important is to LOVE the Lord!!! And you do things out of this love.
Maybe I just wasn’t in the right mood and he did not say what I heard, because I normaly like Piper. :-) So I will listen to it again.
“Like” =) Haven’t listened to second sermon yet. Maybe I’ll just listen to the Piper one again (or maybe find a Keller one!)
Ok, I listened to the sermons again and all is well now. So funny how you can “overhear” things …
Maybe the mood came from the 5cm of snow that came down… Ha, ha you can blame it on the weahter, winter is here!
OK, I’ve read the transcript to the first sermon and am now listening to it. I just thought I’d share in case it is at all helpful to others–I kind of like reading Piper (basic transcript is below sermon player) more than listening to him. Maybe I’m just so used to Keller, but Piper’s delivery can be a little distracting, emotionally, if that makes ANY sense! Just thought I’d point that out than you can read it–and hopefully it may have a more positive impact.
Your order probably would have been better for me :) Read, then listen!
Thanks Elizabeth! I am a visual person (I print emails sometimes!) I have to listen to sermons 2-3 times to get the gist of them. I was just thinking how I would like to read the sermon!
me too Laura–my listening comprehension has (unfortunately) never been as strong as my reading comprehension! With Keller’s it helps me to write as I listen, but Keller is so relational in his delivery I usually find him easy to listen to.
I agree, Elizabeth. I listened to the sermon last evening and decided to read the transcript this morning. I got SO much more in reading than I got from listening. I think in the future this is the route I will take with John Piper.
“If eternal security were like a vaccination, then Christ might be honored on the day of the inoculation, but after that he may be forgotten, the way we forget our vaccinations. But not so if eternal security involves a daily battle against unbelief where the weapons of victory are faith-building exhortations about the trustworthiness of Christ and the greatness of Christ and the value of Christ over all things.”
I find part of this statement a bit troubling…”if eternal security involves…” If J. Piper states that you either are a “partaker” or you are a “think you’re a partaker”…in my mind, if you are a partaker than the question of “eternal security” has been settled from the start. I agree that despite this there will be daily battles, but the daily battles have no bearing on one’s eternal security.
This is a great reminder…”Don’t be careless or nonchalant or inattentive about the condition of your heart. Don’t coast or drift and take your perseverance in faith for granted.”
I understand J. Piper’s points about “unbelief” but also believe that “partakers” can have times where belief falters. In looking at Mark 9 (14-24)…the father of the demon-possessed boy believes that Jesus has power to make a difference in the boy’s life; the addition of “if you can” also shows the father’s doubt. The father states that he believes yet asks Jesus to help him overcome his unbelief.
Oh, sorry Elizabeth…this ended up being more of my thoughts on J. Piper’s sermon overall than just a thanks for your suggestion of reading the transcript.
oh Nanci–such wise insight. I love having you here! I have always loved the story of the man in Mk 9 too–so identify with the ” i believe but help my unbelief”–and loved this from you “the daily battles have no bearing on one’s eternal security”
Thanks so much for your prayers…I’m doing fine. I am so thankful to have three beautiful children, the Lord blessed me with and with phones and Skype and e-mail…to keep in touch with! What if all we had was slow letters from stagecoach’s!
I wanted to comment also, that very seldom have I doubted my salvation and when I did, it was the evil one putting thoughts into my head and listening to them. In the beginning, after I gave my heart to Jesus, in my 20′s, I would pray the prayer over every time, like Susan said she did, so I would make sure I was saved! But after 40 years, I have an intimate relationship with Jesus and never doubt my salvation anymore.
If I had a friend who thinks he is saved by a prayer or by being baptized…but neglecting God, I’d have to say to him or her, that, that alone won’t save you, that it is a daily walk with Jesus, trusting and relying on him for every situation, moment by moment. His presence is with us always and he desires us more than we can ever imagine.
I would appreciate prayers for my mom. She fell last night and had to have her brain drained of blood tonight. She is old but still “with it.” Her body suffers. She loves the Lord. I love her. Thanks.
Laura, I will add your mom to my prayers…can you share her first name? take care…I will prayer for you as well.
My mom is Margaret. She broke her humerus and is trying to recover from the brain surgery. She is stable. I just would like her to be comfortable with little pain and unafraid. She is a sweet old woman. God has watched over her. I realize we get old and eventually die; it is life. I just would rather her not be in a lot of pain. I guess I thought one day she would just die in her sleep, peacefully. She has had a hard life but is always faithful to our Lord. Thanks for all the prayers.
Oh Laura, this must be so heart breaking for you. So sorry..Am praying for you and your mom. Thanks so much for keeping us updated.
Laura–praying now, so sorry
Praying for your mom Laura.
Love John Pipers reminder to “check your fight!”
7. What comments do you have on the sermon?
I loved what Piper said-that evidence that you are a Christian is that you are vigilant over your heart. I think whenever I struggle with sin or idolatry-the fact that I struggle is important, and my faith doesn’t lie in accepting Christ in 1988 and even how I understood scripture for the first time-the true sign of knowing Him is that I cling to the fact that HE will finish the work He started in me until I am perfect face to face with Jesus, and HE WILL and I so long for that day when I am perfect face to face with Him. :) This is my hope! I am in this flawed body still-I struggle with sin and temptations to treasure other things more than Jesus..but OH I don’t want to and it scares me to think I can have seasons or moments when I do-and I do-so I must fix my eyes on Him daily. IT doesn’t mean I have lost my salvation, it just means that I need to heed to run the race that is set before me-HOW? By fixing my eyes on Him-the AUTHOR AND PERFECTER of my faith. He will complete His work in me-this is my hope.
I like how Piper brought out how we need one another to encourage us to press on..I have more thoughts on this but no more time-this is really good!
I’ve really appreciated the above discussion. Felt badly for posting the Piper sermon with such adverse reactions, but was thankful for Elizabeth’s comments. I think perhaps it is better to read Piper. I also prefer listening to Keller over reading him because his tone is so humble and relational. But he says so much, a transcript would be nice too.
If I do another Piper sermon for you — it will be a transcript!
This is something the Lord gave me this am
“There is no other name under heaven or earth”
It is all about Jesus
The refrain is high and constant
Escaping from our lips
Yeshua is on the move
Jesus is coming
Hallejah, our Lord is coming
In all His glory, our soverign Lord
Our lips are encased with His precious blood
Only one name is shouted
Over and over agin
Behold Jesus
Behold Yeshua
The precious “Lamb of God”
There is no other name under heaven or earth
Only Jeus, only Yeshua
It began as a whisper, a sigh
A shout, now many are shouting
Jesus, Yeshua
The valley resounds
The name crashes mountains
Rolls down hillls, dances on the wind
Jesus, Yeshua our beloved Lord
Our Lamb of God is coming
Jesus, Yeshua
We run to the name
We run to the beloved Lamb of God
“It is the name of the Lord
That people run to
It is the name of the Lord
Jesus, Yeshua
There is no other name”
When we lift up the name of Jesus
He has promised to draw
all men unto Him
He does the drawing
His precious name
Dipped in blood
Redeems
His name alone
No other
Jesus, Yeshua
How I love that name!
Last night on our evening news.
A young girl committed suicide on line
I believe on you tube
She had been bullied for 3 years.
Even changing schools etc.
She and her parents tried everything
But in the end she chose death.
She said she only wanted someone to care, to love her.
It was tragic and sad and it broke my heart.
Even though I do not post all the time
I am reading
The Lord is showing me how precious I am to Him
That I am forgiven
Somedays I have no one to talk to but the Lord
And I mean literally no one.
But I praise God
I sing, I shout, I dance in my living room
I love my Lord and He loves me.
I wish and pray that for everyone.
In Christ alone I stand
All other ground is sinking sand
All other ground is sinking sand.
In Christ
Mellany
I wanted to real quick jump on and post the link to the optional sermon–in case anyone wants to be able to read the transcript ;)
http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/sermons/do-not-harden-your-heart-in-the-day-of-trouble
Ready for take-a-ways?
Mine is to recommend reading Piper rather than listening to him!
Seriously — I find seeing the pattern throughout Hebrews of warning illuminating. This really isn’t about losing our salvation, but a clear warning to those who profess but do not have fruit in their lives. I don’t see it at all as reading my Reformed theology into it — though I have found the discussion good to ponder.
8. What is your take-a-way and why?
“If the faith whereby I have laid hold on Christ to be my Savior be altogether wrought in me by the Holy Ghost through grace, then I defy the devil to take away that which he never gave me or to crush that which Jehovah Himself created in me. I defy my free will to fling what it never brought to me. What God has given, created, introduced, and established in the heart, He will maintain there.”-Charles Spurgeon
This has been a beautiful passage to study. For me, it has been a strong encouragement of the assurance we have as believers. We cannot lose what we did not attain on our own. Our salvation, a gift from God, is based on Jesus. It’s an unconditional, irrevocable, undeserved gift. I think the enemy uses passages such as this to have believers focus on our weaknesses, and doubt Who, Whose we are. But the passages are here to encourage—we are HIS. We are chosen and cannot be un-chosen. We know we will struggle, He has told us that many times. But struggle does not mean we have lost our identity—it is part of sharing in His identity—as the One who fought the greatest of all battles. The trials enrich the fruit, they do not negate them. Those who proclaim to be believers will not bear fruit—it may look like fruit, but it will be plastic. It will fall away at the time of trials.
“You would not have called to me unless I had been calling to you,” said the Lion-CS Lewis
Elizabeth, I love your takeaway. Sorry I have not been able to participate in the discussion, but I agree with what you are saying here. I was just listening to CS Lewis’ “The Silver Chair” as I was travelling to Krista’s place this week where you got your quote from Aslan. Love it.
I just glanced out my windows here in New Brunswick and we had our first heavy frost last night and all your talk of fruit reminded me of how some grape growers in this part of the world wait for the first frost to make ice wine. Just as you can’t have ice wine without frost, suffering makes a more concentrated purer Christian, I think.
I am not a “drinker”, having been raised in a very strong teetotaller tradition (long story but some of you may understand my Baptist roots here), but the concept of ice wine intrigues me. Here is the Wikipedia definition: “Ice wine (or icewine; German Eiswein) is a type of dessert wine produced from grapes that have been frozen while still on the vine. The sugars and other dissolved solids do not freeze, but the water does, allowing a more concentrated grape must to be pressed from the frozen grapes, resulting in a smaller amount of more concentrated, very sweet wine. With ice wines, the freezing happens before the fermentation, not afterwards…. This gives ice wine its characteristic refreshing sweetness balanced by high acidity.”
Keep up with the Spurgeon quotes, Elizabeth. Love them!
oh Diane–I am so drawn to your wise heart. I read your posts and imagine I am just sitting there listening and could sit for hours!
I’m not a drinker either, but the ice wine analogy is incredible-I have never heard of that before. It is so profound–I keep re-reading the definition. I hope Dee and others see this. “a type of dessert wine produced from grapes that have been frozen while still on the vine”–what an incredible picture, as you said, of the sweetness produced when Christians, still clinging to the Vine, endure suffering.
I’m praying for your family Diane–it seems you all have been under such suffering. Praying for there to be fruit that comes forth from it all, He will not waste the suffering. Love to you all~
Diane,
Yup, understand the teetotaller tradition well :) I like your analogy of ice wine to describe what suffering produces in believers. (and the wine sounds good! I’m up to about 1 glass/year — which would have appalled some friends and relatives!)
Elizabeth — love the Spurgeon quote. And your strong statement.
I agree that enemy has twisted these passages. I was thinking this morning what a strong theme throughout the Scriptures is both unconditional grace but also the warning between professing and possessing faith. All through the gospels the Pharisees professed and Jesus said they did (generally speaking — there were exceptions) not know Him. The letters of John and James warn about fruitless lives being indicative of individuals who do profess but don’t possess. And here we have it in Hebrews — and you are right, the enemy has twisted it.
Sorry for the length–and all the quoting!, but wanted to share these 2 from 2 different Spurgeon sermons on Hebrews 3. With these tough passages, it’s helped me to read older wisdom–these words have helped me see God’s heart in the passages:
“No matter how hard, how insensible, how dead we may have become—let us go again in all the rags, and poverty, and
defilement of our natural condition, and throw ourselves flat on our faces before His mighty Cross! “With all my sin, and all my hardness of heart,” let the Believer say, “I do believe that Jesus died for me.” Let him clasp that Cross! Let him look into those listless eyes! Let him bathe in that fountain filled with blood—this will bring back to him his First Love! This will restore the ancient holiness of his faith, and the former tenderness of his soul!
To you who think that you never were converted, and probably never were—who have grown very hard, and fear
you never could by any possibility melt in repentance—I give this exhortation, and O, may the Holy Spirit enable you to obey it. Come to Jesus you vilest of men! Laboring ones, heavy laden ones, come to Jesus! Black, foul, filthy, hardhearted ones, come to Jesus! He is able to save unto the uttermost them who come unto God by Him.”
on Heb 3:18-19 “It was not through great sin in other respects although they were a sinful people. God was ready to forgive them everything else but unbelief; and had they but been willing and obedient, the times of their ignorance he would have winked at. He had provided sacrifices on purpose to take away sins of ignorance, and multitudes of sins besides; but nothing takes away the sin of unbelief, so long as it remains in the heart. Ye must be believers, or the blood of Jesus Christ itself shall never be sprinkled upon you to your cleansing. However great your sins may have been, all manner of sin and iniquity shall be forgiven unto you if you believe. The greatness of his sin shall shut no men out of heaven; unbelief alone, will stop the way.”
Elizabeth,
I love your take-away above and now these quotes from Spurgeon. They are so powerful, so rich. I love Spurgeon’s explanation that it is NOT any type of sin, or its magnitude, that shuts men out of heaven, but only unbelief. Love his continued exhortation to us all to come to the Cross. It is truly the answer to any problem we could have.
Thanks, Elizabeth! Love the Spurgeon quotes.
4. Find the pattern to find the theme of Hebrews.
A. What is the warning of Hebrews 2:1?
I need to pay careful attention to what I have heard (the Word of God, the Truth of the Gospel) so that I do not drift away. (I think this also speaks to renewing our minds with the Word, daily, as it is so easy to drift in the culture in which we live)
B. What is the warning of Hebrews 3:6?
Hold on to my courage and the hope of which I boast. (Paul said that we boast in Jesus Christ)
C. What is the warning of Hebrews 6:11-12?
Life is going to be difficult. It requires diligence to the very end and that’s hard work -no room for spiritual laziness. Imitate those mature believers who through faith and patience inherit what was promised.
D. What is the warning of Hebrews 10:23?
Hold unswervingly to my hope in Christ. (Walk the straight path)
E. What is the warning of Hebrews 10:35?
Don’t throw away my confidence.
F. What is the warning of Hebrews 12:1?
Throw off everything that hinders me spiritually and take sin seriously – it only entangles me and trips me up so I can’t move forward. I am to run the race (of my life) with perseverance. I find it interesting that there is a “race marked out for us”. It must be God who has “marked out” each of our courses that we must run.
Wow. This is really good for me to remember. How I often look at someone else’s race that they’re running, and I want what they have. Kind of reminds me of watching runners when they race. You can’t cross the line and get into someone else’s lane, you have to stay in your own lane. (or be disqualified)
I think this would be a big thing that hinders me spiritually – wanting to be in someone else’s lane instead of running the course God has marked out for me. Wasting time whining to God, “Why didn’t You bless me like that….or give me that gift….or why do I deserve this trial…”
G. What is the assurance of Hebrews 13:20-21?
Part of my assurance is remembering who God is, and what His promises are. He is the God of peace. He made an eternal covenant with us through the blood of His Son. Jesus has been raised, and He is my Great Shepherd.
Going back to the race analogy, God has my life-course marked out. He knows the trials and sufferings that will happen. Therefore, He has equipped me with everything I need to stay in my lane and run. It’s like if my course included muddy, slippery places, He’d make sure I have the right running shoes with spikes so I wont slip. If He knew there would be times of rain and cold, He’d make sure I had a warm, waterproof jacket.
He says I can’t change lanes, but He gives me everything I need to run where I am placed, and all the while He is working through my trials to mold me and shape me into someone who pleases Him.
oh Susan–I feel like the Lord just led me to come see this right now-just for me–
“Therefore, He has equipped me with everything I need to stay in my lane and run. It’s like if my course included muddy, slippery places, He’d make sure I have the right running shoes with spikes so I wont slip. If He knew there would be times of rain and cold, He’d make sure I had a warm, waterproof jacket.
He says I can’t change lanes, but He gives me everything I need to run where I am placed, and all the while He is working through my trials to mold me and shape me into someone who pleases Him.”
This just hit me EXACTLY where i am today–oh, tears, wow.
I was reading a commentary and came across the following which I found quite helpful…
(3:11) “But by ‘unbelief’ here, I do not mean the doubts of a sincere person who really wants to know God. I mean the opposite. The people whom Moses led were not sincere. They did not want to have a relationship with God. And their problem was not really doubt. They knew about God. Their problem was the decisions that they chose to make about him. They refused to accept his authority over their lives.”
(3:13) “We pretend that we control our own lives. So we imagine that we do not need God’s help. Or we think that he is not really powerful. When we think such thoughts, sin deceives us. Or, we could say that we have deceived ourselves. The problem is in our own hearts and minds. We have a wrong attitude that we do not want to change. That is what the Bible calls ‘a hard heart’.”
(3:17) “God is not a God who wants to be angry with people. He forgives every kind of wrong thing that his people do (Exodus 34:6-7). But he cannot forgive people who do not want him to forgive them. He cannot forgive people who are proud of their evil deeds. He cannot forgive people who constantly refuse to accept his love. Against such people, God is a strict judge. He always does what is right. They are guilty, so they will certainly know his punishment.”
I just wanted to also mention, that John Piper’s sermon transcripts definitely gave me much food for thought.
Thanks, Elizabeth and Diane for your additional thoughts.
By the way, although I don’t know Krista or all the circumstances involved in her situation, I feel drawn to pray for her. Every time I hear Laura Story’s “Blessings” Krista is brought to mind and prayer.
My take away is that our heart tells it all…am I working out my relationship with God that might involve momentary doubts, etc. but given my best heart efforts or am I merely adding Him on to my plate (so to speak) as I would another item on a buffet with little care, thought, or love? If it is the prior, God will not let me go; He will work with me through the hills and valleys of faith well aware of my faults and sinful nature but my sincere yearning for relationship. If my relationship with God is the later, then I wasn’t really into it in the first place. (and when all is said and done, this is pretty much what John Piper said in other words.)
Good last paragraph, Nanci. Thanks.
5. Read Hebrews 3:7-19. This is an illustration of all the warnings above. What is it?
Wow, this is a lot. I am trying to put this into context that Hebrews was written to those who professed faith in Christ (many truly saved, some who probably were not) but were being persecuted. As Keller said, they were finding out that being a Christian meant their lives were marginalized in many ways. They were under pressure to return to the old ways of Judaism, the sacrifices, the innumerable rules and regulations. They were wavering in their belief that Christ alone was enough to save them.
They are exhorted to listen, to pay attention, and to do it TODAY. The longer they continue on in doubt, the danger is a hardened heart. The writer compares them with the Israelites that Moses led out of Egypt. They saw miracle after miracle performed by God, yet persisted in their unbelief and MISTRUST of God, that He would really take care of them. They wanted to go back to their old ways, to go back to Egypt, back to slavery. This angered God so that He swore they would not enter His rest, they would not enter the Promised Land. I think the writer is making a parallel with the Land and heaven. So, too, those who would fall away and return to Judaism because of their unbelief would prove that they really did not place their trust in Jesus.
Those who are really His will “hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first”.
But these examples are not just for those who lived in the past. The warnings are relevant to us today, for us to examine ourselves. The example of the children of Israel’s continued unbelief and lack of trust was recorded to stand for all time as a warning. But I love that even in these hard words, there is hope. If one finds himself looking more like one of those ancient Israelites, he can, if He hears the voice of the Spirit, turn and repent…but he must do it quickly, as the longer he ignores the Spirit, the more entrenched he will be in his doubt and unbelief.
8. What is your take-a-way and why?
My takeaway is how this passage both assures us as believers yet also warns those who profess they are but aren’t. It is a two fold message. I especially loved Elizabeth’s assurance takeaway, she said it so concise and beautifully. I also LOVED her Spurgeon quotes-I am printing them and posting them in my home!
Simply stated I was encouraged again in assurance that I am His based on what He has done-not on what I have done and I am so thankful I am unable to ‘walk away’-and thankful I haven’t ever had the desire to. :) I can’t take credit for anything though-even my desire to run the race with perseverance!
My hope is in Him and this passage also encouraged me to rest in the assurance I am His-rest in His Grace. His peace flows like a river inside-and that too is incomprehensible-hard to explain. His love compels me to love and He gets the credit for any fruit in my life. He is my life, my identity, and His love melts my heart and He is faithful to reveal the stony areas of my heart that lack compassion and Grace toward others.
Another thing God brought to mind and something I am praying about is to be careful not to try to judge who isn’t in Him. Yet I was encouraged when Dee and Inka both reminded me when I am with someone who doesn’t know him or who may think they do to ask God to show me what it is that is holding them back.
Optional sermon…focusing on the IF…condition for being something now. We are God’s house if we hold fast confidence and hope in God. It is so frustrating to see this false security in the south…it depends on the Holy Spirits persevering grace! He will complete the work He started in me or I am done for. Love that! My heart hurts for the Israelites and their stubbornness. I want to be certain I am not like that.
assigned sermon//take charge of heart…I need to take charge of that more with my kids!! And that there is no coasting…Like what he says about all of this.I see so many who seem to be coasting.
Do you treat it like a vaccination or relationship? Safe from hell or relationship with the one who has keys from hell?
I liked Piper but I guess I get his heart?? Anyway, my take away is still pondering the verse 3 of Hebrews 1:1-3 how Jesus is the exact representation of the Father. It just warms my heart even reading the hard things in Scripture. All is meant for us to be restored or pointed to HIM. All. So all is grace. Many will reject it but to those whose eyes He has opened it is beautiful. I love this picture of God, though He is perfect holiness in flesh He looked so approachable and He was that is the kind of Father we serve. He is completely approachable through Christ.
My take-away: God is bigger than my questions. I seemed to come full circle, sorta back to where I started — that I want more insight; I think there is a bigger picture that I am missing
Just got back to town. I’ve spent several hours on the road yesterday and today and downloaded some stuff to listen to before I left. A couple hours included speaking and Q & A by Keller. The recordings were not at all what I expected (based on the title), but they were excellent. Interestingly, in the middle of the Q & A at the U of Chicago, someone asked him if he thought a person could lose his/her salvation. He very briefly (about 1 sentence) shared what he believed, said he was a Presbyterian minister, and that if he talked to someone “one-to-one,” they would understand what he believed. But he also said that he was there to talk about Christianity, not Presbyterianism. I am curious how he would explain the passages in Hebrews; the audience/setting was unique; I’m hoping I can find somewhere he addresses the passages.
In the Q & A, he also discussed responding to passages in Scripture that seemed to contradict each other or appeared to be in error (and had at least one good example). I didn’t realize that C.S. Lewis believed that the Bible includes errors. I disagree with that, but there is a lot I don’t understand.
6. How would you pray or counsel the person who thinks he is saved because of a prayer or because of being baptized, but has neglected God?
This is really hard, I think I’d really pray for a lot of wisdom and discernment first. The last thing I want to do is plant seeds of doubt in someone who really is saved, but perhaps going through a desert time, or is a baby Christian. I’ve had periods, especially as a new Christian, where I just didn’t really know everything I was “supposed” to be doing. So you become a Christian, but you need to be discipled and mentored to learn how to live the Christian life. I never was discipled – that’s part of the problem of being in a large 2000+ member church – the pastors don’t know everyone personally, and if you walk out the door and never come back, no one even misses you! On top of that, when your family wonders if you’ve “gone off the deep end”, and you get no encouragement at home, it’s really tough. I lived there for a lot of years. In my new church, I am just starting to experience “community”, being known personally, and it’s taken a year for that.
Now if this person was continually living in open sin, yet told me that he was saved because of a prayer, etc…., I would probably take him to 1 John, and say let’s look at some Scripture about sin…not that we don’t still sin, but if it’s a continual, habitual pattern and it doesn’t even bother you, you feel no conviction about it…
I’d ask a lot of questions and try to be a really good listener.
7. I just finished listening to the first of John Piper’s sermons. I liked it very much; I both listened and read the narrative, but the narrative leaves out a lot of “extra” things he says. He is a passionate preacher. I like how passionate he is about every message being a salvation message. Good examples he gives were the vaccination metaphor, “How many of you thought about your polio vaccination this morning?” Jesus is not an innoculation against hell, and then we forget Him. He also made such a good point about how much we need community because every day we are bombarded with thoughts that slip in and say that this or that is better than Bible, better than church, why don’t you just forget about that stuff and do this…we need to encourage each other daily. This tells me that I NEED YOU GUYS! Being on this blog helps keep me close to Him. Just this summer, someone close to me said, “Why don’t you take a break from Bible study?” And I said to them, “Would you like me to say to you that I’m going to take a break from you and not talk to you say, for a couple of months?”
But this is what we’re hit with every day – “take a break from God…you don’t really need to talk to Him every day, do you? Isn’t there something better you could be doing with your time?”
8. What is your take-away and why?
My take-away is to “take-away”….all of this. It’s not a wrapped-up, finished thing for this week. As we continue on in Hebrews, this will be a repeated theme. There are assurances, there are warnings. As Piper pointed out, this book is addressed to “Brethren -brothers and sisters”. There are both in their midst. I don’t think you can pull out any particular passages and say, this is about eternal security. I’d like to remember to put myself in the original hearers position as it was read to them. This letter speaks assurance and warning, it speaks about self-examination. But, as we’ve learned, there is a Hero in this book, Jesus.
Love your comments on the sermon, Susan, as I will not have a chance to listen to them now. You encourage me to listen to his perspective.
I especially LOVE your thoughts on the importance of Christian community and Bible study (both in church and on this blog.) So true! I NEED YOU GUYS, too. “He also made such a good point about how much we need community because every day we are bombarded with thoughts that slip in and say that this or that is better than Bible, better than church, why don’t you just forget about that stuff and do this…we need to encourage each other daily. This tells me that I NEED YOU GUYS! Being on this blog helps keep me close to Him. Just this summer, someone close to me said, “Why don’t you take a break from Bible study?” And I said to them, “Would you like me to say to you that I’m going to take a break from you and not talk to you say, for a couple of months?”
But this is what we’re hit with every day – “take a break from God…you don’t really need to talk to Him every day, do you? Isn’t there something better you could be doing with your time?”
NO ! The 2 places referred to are Hebrews 6 :4-6 & Hebrews 10: 26-27….both of these scriptures are people who have heard the Gospel and rejected Jesus.The “Judizers”. If these Verses were what they “seem” to appear to be in the opinion of some, then HEAVEN would be ablosolutley desolate forever, because we ALL SIN WILLFULLY, Romans 3:10-23.
Actully Hebrews teaches the exact opposite. See Hebrews 10:10-12 jusst for 1. But Read the whole book of Hebrews and you will find to your pleasant surprise that Hebrews is one of the most comforting books when it comes to the believer’s assurance of salvation through faith in Jesus that there is in the Bible.
Back to Hebrews 6….see hebrews 6:13-20…..in KJB or in the New Living Translation or any version you have.
See Also Romans 4:5-8 & 2 Cor. 5:19 about future sins and the “BELIEVER”.
TRUST JESUS, not the fearful and the Hypocrites. 2 Timothy 1:7
I have given a full explanation of why this cannot be what it appears to be at first glance in Heb 6:4-6 & Heb 10:26-27.
AND let me add btw that if these 2 lone verses were loss of salvation then they would totally contrdict the totallity of scripture to the contrary. No….. these are only the Judizers who “TASTED” of he good things of the Gospel BUT they did NOT “SHALLOW IT”. In other words they “rejected CHRIST” and returned to “Judaism” and the “LAW”.
Again read the ENTIRE book of HEBREWS and you will not find a MORE comforting book as far as the believer’s assurance of salvation from God, “IN CHRIST”.
Trust our SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST…and NOT the worriers, fear mongers and hypocrites. Numbers 23:19